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fermenting Where did all the Mashers go?

Downriver

Downriver

Extreme Member
Hey folks,

There's several threads here about starting a mash, but they haven't been updated lately. Several of them were started by first-timers. I'm interested in this process and would love to know how they're doing. Are they still fermenting? Did they fail? If they're done, what did you do next? How do they taste?

So come on ya'll, update those threads! :dance:

(EDIT: Thank you Patrick for keeping your thread updated: Your mash looks great!)
 
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There are a huge long list of reasons that the cook in vinegar is a much much better way to go. first it is safer. more stable. the flavor stays the same over time. use vinegar and cook it for instant hot sauce. why fool around for 6 months of a big mess.

99% of all commercial hot sauce is made by cooking peppers in vinegar and instantly bottled and sold. The way to go. also no salt needed. you can taste the flavor and change it before bottling it.

Even sauerkraut commercial canners now use vinegar because they had to throw out too many thousand of gallon batches because they went wrong.

Tabasco says they ferment but then they add so much vinegar at the end that it is all the same anyway. They get no benefit from the fermentation and the ageing. They must add at least 3 to 10 times the volume of vinegar to the mash. I am pretty sure they use about 5 or 6 volumes of vinegar to 1 volume of mash. Taste it. it tastes like flavored vinegar. So what is with all the hype on fermentation. It is all sales hype.

150 years ago when they started ALL barrels were oak barrels. Stainless Steel did not exist. Hot Sauce does not improve in oak barrels. Wine does because it tastes terrible when fresh. But fresh hot sauce tastes great. no need to age it except a few weeks maybe.

The big thing in the old days was pressing the mash through a sieve. Today they use machines to make the seeds and skins into liquid. Just look at the watery tabasco sauce. It looks watered down and it tastes watered down. of course. vinegar is cheap. mash is expensive. So they turn cheap vinegar into expensive hot sauce. that is business.

Where did the mashers go? they went back to making hot sauce the right way by cooking the peppers in vinegar.

Those who started probably had the mash go bad and threw it out but dont want to admit it.
 
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Tabby Basco said:
There are a huge long list of reasons that the cook in vinegar is a much much better way to go. first it is safer. more stable. the flavor stays the same over time. use vinegar and cook it for instant hot sauce. why fool around for 6 months of a big mess.

99% of all commercial hot sauce is made by cooking peppers in vinegar and instantly bottled and sold. The way to go. also no salt needed. you can taste the flavor and change it before bottling it.

Even sauerkraut commercial canners now use vinegar because they had to throw out too many thousand of gallon batches because they went wrong.

Tabasco says they ferment but then they add so much vinegar at the end that it is all the same anyway. They get no benefit from the fermentation and the ageing. They must add at least 3 to 10 times the volume of vinegar to the mash. I am pretty sure they use about 5 or 6 volumes of vinegar to 1 volume of mash. Taste it. it tastes like flavored vinegar. So what is with all the hype on fermentation. It is all sales hype.

150 years ago when they started ALL barrels were oak barrels. Stainless Steel did not exist. Hot Sauce does not improve in oak barrels. Wine does because it tastes terrible when fresh. But fresh hot sauce tastes great. no need to age it except a few weeks maybe.

The big thing in the old days was pressing the mash through a sieve. Today they use machines to make the seeds and skins into liquid. Just look at the watery tabasco sauce. It looks watered down and it tastes watered down. of course. vinegar is cheap. mash is expensive. So they turn cheap vinegar into expensive hot sauce. that is business.

Where did the mashers go? they went back to making hot sauce the right way by cooking the peppers in vinegar.

Those who started probably had the mash go bad and threw it out but dont want to admit it.
Click to expand...

Well yes and no. Sauce is fine fresh, damn tasty in fact. When it comes to vinegar sauce I actually like those, but not for everything.(Franks is one of my favs flavor wise) But fermenting does give a unique flavor that's pretty nice. And it allows you to use a lot less of other preservatives like vinegar. Which is a real advantage if you like many of the members of forum don't like a vinegary sauce. Among the peppers I fermented this year I also did some whole red jalapenos as a test(Yes whole not mashed, though I did top them) Once I sauced them it was damn tasty, and nothing like other red jalapeno sauces I've made. There was a flavor rpofile in there that reminded me of tabasco sauce. So it does make a difference, even if you're adding vinegar afterwards.

As to my mash thread I simply haven't finished it. I stopped updating weekly since the it doesn't really change much anymore. After 4 weeks I did do a sauce with it, I took pics etc... and now I'm letting it age some more and i'll compare the two. That's when I'll do my final write up. I did a good number of mashes this fall. not just the one in my thread, and so far none have actually gone bad. One bottle did get a L Brett cap but that doesn't hurt it.
 
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Hey Tabby Basco,
I politely diagree having made sauce from fresh peppers for years I switched over to making all my sauce from aged fermented pepper mash because of the shelf stability and longevity. My sauces that were made with fresh peppers started to oxidize in the neck of the bottle over time and was a sign when not to eat the sauce. When I ferment my peppers first then make a sauce I get a different consistency that doesn't stick to the inside of the bottle and pours smoothly. The color or my sauces are vibrant like fresh peppers and the sauce only get better over time. The amount of vinegar you use is up to each sauce maker and I use 5:1 mash to vinegar. Aging in oak that is because all the salt that is used in the fermentation process, the flavor comes from the mash process itself. To each the own in what type of sauce the prefer and why but in my fridge I grab the pepper mash made sauce because that is what my taste buds like no other reason.
 
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Tabby Basco, I think the reason there are no updates is because there is nothing really exciting to see. Shredded peppers sitting in a jar with some bubbles for months makes for a dull pic. I didn't even bother starting a fermentation thread :lol: If only we had smell-a-vision that would be a different story, as I get a wonderful nostril full of a pleasing aroma every time I open the door to my cupboard. They've been working now since November 8th and I won't disturb them probably until sometime in February as long as I continue to see bubble formation.

I don't plan on using any vinegar when processing my mash into a sauce and am relying on the lactic acid produced by the LAB to drop the PH into the safe zone. If necessary I'll add a little lime juice. The different flavor produced by fermentation is the reason I wanted to try this process and am patiently waiting on the outcome. :)

Tabasco uses a lot of vinegar; I don't plan to use any and I'm sure that alone will make a huge difference in flavor.
 
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I admit. I am guilty. I like the taste of vinegar. I really like vinegar. Not everyone does.

I am surprised by your findings. Maybe I should try some fermented hot sauce. Live and learn.

But I still find it easy and fast and much less trouble. Also I don't need to add salt.

I also believe the vinegar method is more safe because the sauce gets to the acid pH immediately instead of taking a long time. I have read about lots of ferments going bad on the internet although many were for sauerkraut. But the process is the same.

On Garden Web there are some long threads where the guy made hot sauce and had to throw some of them out. They did not go to a low enough pH. Do you measure your pH after every batch? He was using hooch and kefir for his fermentation. He reported all the details.

I am trying to think back. He did use less salt. Maybe that was his problem. I do not like salt. I never liked salt even as a young kid. Salt is not good for me. Salt raises the blood pressure and causes people to die from heart problems. There are no salt shakers in my house. I never add salt to any food. If I were to taste some salty food I would not be able to taste it or eat it. If I put something with 10% salt onto my tongue and someone asked me how it tasted I would say SALTY.
 
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Fermented products have a very different soury taste, much different than vinegar. Bacteria eat the sugars and turn them into acids giving a less sweet but more acidic(sour) flavor. Properly fermented products like sauerkraut(and mash to a certain degree)have tonnes of beneficial bacteria which are super healthy for you however once you heat process it you're loosing almost all of this extra goodness.
When using salt, never use table salt. Sea salt or kosher salt are much healthier alternatives
 
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Ok...I must admit that I have neglected to post updates of my fermentation projects (6 currently active, and three are being consumed daily).
I have taken pics throughout...but just like others have already said....there is nothing new or interesting to see.

The most mature fermenting batch I have fermenting/aging(Chiltepins)... was sealed on 8/25 and I plan to crack it open and make some bloody mary mix for our Christmas eve celebration.
DSCF0490.jpg


Three other "pepper" projects are working as we speak, and should be ready by late winter or early spring....just in time for something to warm me up while tailgating college baseball games in March.

With all that being said.... I have been eating the fermented Habanero Salsa,
DSCF0499.jpg


some regular sauerkraut,
TuxandGown004.jpg

and my favorite which is "kicked up" Kim Chi
DSCF0497.jpg


almost daily for several weeks....and will continue to do so until its gone.
Then...if my scheduling and planning was accurate... I'll simply open a new batch or two.

Each to his own...but the resulting flavor from a fermentation process..can't be achieved otherwise.
The smooth yet rich depth of flavor, and fresh,crunchy texture of vegetables which remains for weeks after they are opened is addictive.

P.S.
I use air locks most of the time,and I have never had a batch go bad when using that method.
However,I do have a couple open crocks going....
DSCF0481.jpg

and I have had to remove some mold growth,which is normal in open crocks.
Both still have an acceptable pH level...
DSCF0484.jpg

..and are well on the path to being bottled as one thing or another...sometime down the road.
 
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Yeah, I am one of the slackers on the posting here recently, but SS hit it on the head. Not much to see. I have 4 quarts ready to be boiled and bottled, but by looks, it is the same as when I started them about 2 months ago. No mold, no sign of spoilage and smells delightful. I never like the taste of vinegar much, which is why I started making the mash, and now, I just can't imagine doing the quick method. The just has such a wonderful smooth flavor that is perfect for my liking.

As soon as I bottle them up, I will give the final Ph reading and pics of the final product.

jacob
 
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Hey guys,

Thanks for updating your threads and sharing additional expertise here.

Now, as far as not updating because nothing's happening. You folks KNOW that nothing is going on (which is ok) and, therefore, think adding comments and/or taking additional pics is boring. BUT, for those of us who have never done it, we don't KNOW that. I'm gonna be constantly worrying whether or not everything is "OK". If I had a piccy every week or so of your mash showing me nothing has changed, that would be ummm...calming :)

Just getting you guys talking is educational. There is TONS of good stuff just in this thread. Like the mold on the open crock. I've read about it but I've never seen it. Thanks for showing that CM. (The thought of mold still scares me though) :eek: And Cappy talking about oxidation struck a chord with me. If fermenting helps eliminate that, I definitely got to give this a try.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks again and to please keep up the good work. :clap:
 
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Fermenting is Fermenting Food. The food in this case is peppers. chile peppers. hot peppers.

I suggest you ferment something low cost like cabbage just for practice.

You can find general information on food fermentation on another forum similar to this one.

http://www.wildfermentation.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

I am not sure for you but around here cabbage is low priced compared to good hot peppers which are 10 times more expensive per pound.

I prefer vinegar hot sauce for several reasons. I do like the flavor of white distilled vinegar but there are more reasons. I feel it is easy fast low cost and safe.

My opinion is that fermentation is complex, slow, expensive and not safe at all. If you are going to ferment then it only makes sense to learn all you can about it before eating the food. That means reading everything on the internet. I did say Everything! And then you should understand it very well because just about 100% of all I read on the internet is wrong! False info. I find it difficult to filter out the truth from the wrong advice. Slowly but surely.

Fermentation is expensive because you have to throw out bad batches. Cooking in vinegar there should be no bad batches.


And do not believe what you read at wild fermentation. They dont know what they are talking about either.
 
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This argument is like saying hotdogs are better than salamis. If everything was made the same way, life would be boring. I like all kinds of sauces and can't say 1 tecnique is better although simple chile/vinegar sauces are usually kind of boring to me these days. Good on fries though. Fermenting is not rocket science, just do some research. There are a lot of books if you don't trust the interweb
 
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My mash has two weeks to go. It mostly smelled like fruity wine but it rarely bubbles now so it may be done?
I used a balloon with pin holes in it as my airlock. If it goes bad would it smell rotten at all or should I test its ph even if it smells okay before I try it out?
 
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Moshman said:
My mash has two weeks to go. It mostly smelled like fruity wine but it rarely bubbles now so it may be done?
I used a balloon with pin holes in it as my airlock. If it goes bad would it smell rotten at all or should I test its ph even if it smells okay before I try it out?
Click to expand...

Personally, I check and log the pH on every batch of hot sauce I make,regardless of the processing method.In fact, I even check the PH of most commercial sauces I purchase...just so I know.
The times that I have had any fermented projects that were bad...the smell made it very obvious and erased any doubt.

And just because the pH might be too high to bottle into hot woozies, does not mean that I must toss it out....it only means that it should be processed in a hot water bath or pressure canned.
When ever I am close to a 4.0 or higher pH ...I go ahead and pressure can the Batch.
 
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Canning is going to kill off all the healthy bacteria produced in fermentation but I guess it also guarantees it will be safe to eat if you're worried about that
Anything low acid should be pressure canned to prevent botulism, a water bath is just not enough.
 
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DownRiver said:
Hey guys,

Thanks for updating your threads and sharing additional expertise here.

Now, as far as not updating because nothing's happening. You folks KNOW that nothing is going on (which is ok) and, therefore, think adding comments and/or taking additional pics is boring. BUT, for those of us who have never done it, we don't KNOW that. I'm gonna be constantly worrying whether or not everything is "OK". If I had a piccy every week or so of your mash showing me nothing has changed, that would be ummm...calming :)

Just getting you guys talking is educational. There is TONS of good stuff just in this thread. Like the mold on the open crock. I've read about it but I've never seen it. Thanks for showing that CM. (The thought of mold still scares me though) :eek: And Cappy talking about oxidation struck a chord with me. If fermenting helps eliminate that, I definitely got to give this a try.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks again and to please keep up the good work. :clap:
Click to expand...

Greetings DR:
While there are those who are of the opinion that fermentation is complex, slow, expensive and not safe at all,I would have to totally disagree.
1.I have been consuming fermented vegetables for 50+ years.
2.Initially learning from my Grandma(who had a 3rd grade education) and even making my own fermented projects as a child of 7 or 8 years.(cabbage,pickles,beets,carrots,beans,peppers both hot and mild)
3.The process is a long or short as a particular vegetable requires to be preserved. (ie.,starch/sugar content)
4.I don't often throw out bad batches of anything,in fact it has been quite some time since I have had any batch go bad and need to be tossed. I follow a strict,almost obsessed regime of cleaning all ingredients, tools, containers, surfaces, and not using any chlorinated water or salt that could have anything additional added.
When ever I have had a batch spoil, it has been because "I failed" to follow these food handling/processing practices.


Here are some sites you might want to visit.
Some of the University studies might be a little "heady" but they are very informative and helpful if you can get through them.
http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-07122005-142543/unrestricted/Koh_thesis.pdf
LSU Study of pepper mash fermented in wood compared to plastic

http://fsweb2.schaub.ncsu.edu/usdaars/Acrobatpubs/P151-189/p164.pdf
North Carolina State Study of fermented vegetables and PH levels necessary for storage stability

http://web.mac.com/catherinehaug/iWeb/CatsKitchen-Recipes/LactoCondmts_files/Lactofermented%20Veg_LBannion.html
This has a very good explanation of the fermentations process step by step and recipes for various vegetables.

Enjoy....
CM
 
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