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Caribbean Red chile facts

djsketchie

djsketchie

If Caribbean Reds are not Habaneros, then why does the Chile Pepper Institute label them as such? Check out the link to their seed catalog:

NMSU CPI Red Caribbean Habanero

I am actually growing some of these out this summer, since I've heard that they have great flavor and are very prolific producers. I'll keep my eye out for the pod characteristics you mentioned OMRI, and give an update later this season.
 
djsketchie said:
If Caribbean Reds are not Habaneros, then why does the Chile Pepper Institute label them as such? Check out the link to their seed catalog:

NMSU CPI Red Caribbean Habanero

I am actually growing some of these out this summer, since I've heard that they have great flavor and are very prolific producers. I'll keep my eye out for the pod characteristics you mentioned OMRI, and give an update later this season.
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All Caribbean Reds are Habaneros, but not all red Habaneros are Caribbean Reds.
Omri said:
"Caribbean Red Hot"/"Caribbean Red" Habanero is a very specific variety of chile.
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Habaneros are what C. chinense's are called in the Mexico area.
 
Well, I think it's safe to say that Caribbean Red's are a variety of red Habanero, so I think we are on the same page - never really insinuated that all red Habaneros were Caribbean Reds. I actually appreciate being very specific and precise when it comes to wording and descriptions of peppers...we have enough ambiguity as it is with new superhot hybrids showing up with ridiculous names every 2 or 3 months.

Now, Scotch Bonnets vs. Habaneros...that might elicit a more lively debate :)
 
djsketchie said:
Well, I think it's safe to say that Caribbean Red's are a variety of red Habanero, so I think we are on the same page - never really insinuated that all red Habaneros were Caribbean Reds. I actually appreciate being very specific and precise when it comes to wording and descriptions of peppers...we have enough ambiguity as it is with new superhot hybrids showing up with ridiculous names every 2 or 3 months.

Now, Scotch Bonnets vs. Habaneros...that might elicit a more lively debate :)
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Habanero is just a general name for C. chinense chiles. Caribbean Reds are Habaneros because of their origin and that's how they're called over there. there isn't any more substantial connection between this variety and other Habaneros than with any other C. chinense variety like the Scotch Bonnets etc. it's a C. chinense, because of its origin has the "Habanero" bit in its name and it's red. that's the only similarities with other red Habaneros. it's not a variety of red Habanero.

Now there are also several different varieties with the name Scotch Bonnet. comparing one variety to the other isn't different than comparing the same variety (of Scotch Bonnet) to Caribbean Reds.
 
Yeesh...I guess we aren't on the same page? Well, I guess we will just agree to disagree. Caribbean Red Habanero - I see "Red Habanero" in the name there, and it is sold as such from one of the most respected chile pepper institutions. It's a Habanero. It's red. Therefore in my eyes it is a variety of red Habanero that happens to be specific to the Caribbean. I'm not really sure where the disconnect is...

Anyhow, I have accidentally contributed to the hijacking of this thread for long enough...time to enjoy Easter Sunday with the family!
 
djsketchie said:
Yeesh...I guess we aren't on the same page? Well, I guess we will just agree to disagree. Caribbean Red Habanero - I see "Red Habanero" in the name there, and it is sold as such from one of the most respected chile pepper institutions. It's a Habanero. It's red. Therefore in my eyes it is a variety of red Habanero that happens to be specific to the Caribbean. I'm not really sure where the disconnect is...

Anyhow, I have accidentally contributed to the hijacking of this thread for long enough...time to enjoy Easter Sunday with the family!
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Well that's the problem my friend, you take it too literally. it's not even from the Caribbean.
 
I know I said I was done for the day, but OMRI's response to my last post was a bit too smug for me considering he is incorrect. I think if you take a look at where the Yucatan Peninsula is on a world map, it shares a massive part of its border with the Caribbean Sea and you could almost throw a rock and hit Cuba from Cancun.

I really am more interested with correct information and facts as a scientist and fellow stickler for specifics and details. If you say that a Caribbean Red Habanero is neither a red Habanero variety, nor is it from the Caribbean, then the burden of proof really lies with you to back up those claims. If you have any links to literature that would help clear this up, please post them so everyone can know where you draw your conclusions from.

Also, if you want to transfer this debate to a new thread so that it doesn't hijack the primary purpose of this one, you can do that as a moderator, and I'll be glad to continue.
 
What is a Caribbean Red?

thechileman.org said:
Originating from the Yucutan Peninsula in Mexico, this pepper variety is FEROCIOUSLY HOT and is thought to be the second hottest chile pepper variety on the planet measuring a scorching 445,000 scoville units. This makes it twice as hot as a standard Habanero Chile and over 80 times hotter than an Jalapeno Pepper! The slightly wrinkled chiles are approximately 1 inch wide by 1.5 inches long and are similiar in shape to the Habanero. The chiles ripen from lime green to a brilliant red in 110 days and are produced on very productive plants that reach 30 inches tall. As well as the blistering heat, they have a lovely fruity flavour which makes them an excellent choice for use in salsa's, marinades and of course, in hot sauce.
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The Caribbean Red Habanero is a red C. chinense chile pepper originating from Mexico. it has a fruity flavor and is extremely hot with a recorded Scoville rate of 445,000SHU.

What is "Habanero"?

dictionary.com said:
Habanero ( Spanish aβaˈnero)

— n , pl -ros
a native or inhabitant of Havana
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dictionary.com said:
< Spanish chile habanero chili from Havana
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The origin of the word is Spanish for "...from Havana". so chile Habanero is a chile from Havana.

Code: 
http://www.thechileman.org/results.php?find=habanero&heat=Any&origin=Any&genus=Any&chile=1&submit=Search

As seen in the link above, there are endless different chiles named Habaneros. not all from Mexico. not all from from Havana or even anywhere near Cuba. not all very hot or hot at all. not all the same color. not all the same shape. not all have the same flavor. the only similarity is the fact they are all C. chinense or C. chinense-related. therefor "Habanero" is a term used to describe, by some, members of the C. chinense species.

What is C. chinense?

Capsicums: Innovative Uses of an Ancient Crop (Paul W. Bosland) said:
Capsicum has been known since the beginning of civilization in the Western Hemisphere. It has been a part of the human diet since about 7500 BC (MacNeish 1964). It was the ancient ancestors of the native peoples who took the wild chile piquin and selected for the many various types known today. Heiser (1976) states that apparently between 5200 and 3400 BC, the Native Americans were growing chile plants. This places chiles among the oldest cultivated crops of the Americas. As opposed to most domesticated crops, the wild ancestral chiles are not looked upon as worthless or inferior by farming people who cultivate their domestic decedents. The wild Capsicum annuum var. aviculare is harvested and sold in the marketplace along side the larger-fruited domesticated chiles. Capsicum was domesticated at least five times by prehistoric peoples in different parts of South and Middle America. The five domesticated species are C. annuum L., C. baccatum L., C. chinense Jacq., C. frutescens L., and C. pubescens R. & P. (IBPGR 1983).
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C. chinense is a domesticated Capsicum (pepper) species found all around the world.

Code: 
http://www.thechileman.org/results.php?chile=1&find=Any&heat=Any&origin=Any&genus=Chinense&submit=Search

As seen in the link above, members of the C. chinense species go by many names. examples are "Aji" (which basically means "pepper"), "Scotch Bonnet", "Habanero" and other names, depending on how the people in that specific geographic location refer to them.

NOTE: I have moved the comments from the old topic to this one as 'djsketchie' requested.
 
Geographically speaking, the Yucatan is INSANELY CLOSE to Cuba. Like 90 miles. And The entire peninsula is on the Caribbean.

I'm not even going to pretend to know the differences between pepper species. I assume that's what scientific names are for. But I do know geography, and Mexico IS on the Caribbean.
 
Wow... Lots of peppery facts coming about from this!... you guys really care about these caribbean reds A LOT.. I have a few of them growing now. This thread will make me enjoy them so much more... this is definitely one "HEATED" debate! HAHA :hell: :onfire: :mouthonfire: :fireball: :fire:
 
Omri said:
Well that's the problem my friend, you take it too literally. it's not even from the Caribbean.
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This was my main objection, and the only reason I reposted to correct your response. Your history and grammar lesson did not really address this issue, but it looks to be a great resource for new chile pepper growers that want to know about C. Chinense and its origins.

Getting back to the issue at hand, you have stated the following:

1. "All Caribbean Reds are Habaneros, but not all red Habaneros are Caribbean Reds." --- I think this is well understood, and it seems to me that you do actually believe that all Caribbean Reds are Habaneros.

2. "Habaneros are what C. chinense's are called in the Mexico area." --- Caribbean Red Habaneros originate from the Yucatan Peninsula, which is in Mexico, so this still backs up the claim that it is a variety of red Habanero.

3. "it's a C. chinense, because of its origin has the "Habanero" bit in its name and it's red. that's the only similarities with other red Habaneros. it's not a variety of red Habanero." --- Okay this one was just confusing, because it is a bit contradictory based on Statements 1 and 2. You first say that all Caribbean Reds are Habaneros but then you say that it's not a variety of red Habanero? That logic doesn't follow. The color is red. It is a Habanero. There is more than one variety of red Habanero, the Carribean Red Habanero being one of them. I am not claiming any other connection to other red Habaneros than this, and you have yet to explain why I am wrong.

4. "it's not even from the Caribbean." --- I repeated this for emphasis, and I think another helpful THP member reconfirmed that the Yucatan is both in Mexico and the Caribbean. This is a fact and is irrefutable. You posted a follow up link in your history lesson that stated the origin was from the Yucatan Peninsula, which backs up my claim that the Caribbean Red Habanero is in fact from the Caribbean.

As much as I enjoy brushing up on my debate and reasoning skills, I see no reason to continue unless you can specifically comment on these points with relevant information. I think this post speaks for itself, and others can draw their own conclusions by evaluating the merit of both our arguments. I will say that I appreciate the general tone of our posts, and perhaps you can sticky this as proof that two people can debate a topic without resorting to flame wars :cheers:
 
LOL y'all are complicating the heck out of what was a relatively simple identification issue, normally we (the chile head community)would place any C. Chinense as a generic "Habanero" or of the "Habanero family", then use the name to designate the different pod/location issues Which I think y'all are trying to do, but are disagreeing about the wording? Hell lets just agree it's a pretty damn hot member of the habanero & Chinense (Which mean's "from China" lmao) family and is a great pod. It's all about the pepper.
 
djsketchie said:
1. "All Caribbean Reds are Habaneros, but not all red Habaneros are Caribbean Reds." --- I think this is well understood, and it seems to me that you do actually believe that all Caribbean Reds are Habaneros.

2. "Habaneros are what C. chinense's are called in the Mexico area." --- Caribbean Red Habaneros originate from the Yucatan Peninsula, which is in Mexico, so this still backs up the claim that it is a variety of red Habanero.

3. "it's a C. chinense, because of its origin has the "Habanero" bit in its name and it's red. that's the only similarities with other red Habaneros. it's not a variety of red Habanero." --- Okay this one was just confusing, because it is a bit contradictory based on Statements 1 and 2. You first say that all Caribbean Reds are Habaneros but then you say that it's not a variety of red Habanero? That logic doesn't follow. The color is red. It is a Habanero. There is more than one variety of red Habanero, the Carribean Red Habanero being one of them. I am not claiming any other connection to other red Habaneros than this, and you have yet to explain why I am wrong.
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Well let me explain myself better (it seems as if I have a difficulty really "getting through" with my current language skills).
What bothers me is you saying:
djsketchie said:
Well, I think it's safe to say that Caribbean Red's are a variety of red Habanero
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and then...
djsketchie said:
Now, Scotch Bonnets vs. Habaneros...that might elicit a more lively debate :)
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This would be defining the Habaneros as very specific chiles different than other C. chinense chiles, such as the Scotch Bonnets. if you take a Scotch Bonnet grown in Jamaica and then sell it in a Mexican market with no sign, they will tell you it's a Habanero. why? because Habanero is simply a C. chinense, like the Scotch Bonnet is. when you say Habaneros are very specific chiles and then state the Caribbean Red is part of them, that is not correct. I originally said all Caribbean Reds are red Habaneros, what I meant to say they are also red C. chinense like all other red C. chinense, no matter what they're called. so yes, the Caribbean Red is a red colored C. chinense. C. chinense's go by many names, not just Habanero.


djsketchie said:
4. "it's not even from the Caribbean." --- I repeated this for emphasis, and I think another helpful THP member reconfirmed that the Yucatan is both in Mexico and the Caribbean. This is a fact and is irrefutable. You posted a follow up link in your history lesson that stated the origin was from the Yucatan Peninsula, which backs up my claim that the Caribbean Red Habanero is in fact from the Caribbean.
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The geographic issue didn't bother me. as far as I know, there is a different terminology in Mexico and the Caribbean islands. the presence of certain species (not varieties) is also different. therefor I always consider both as different sources, especially when it comes to chiles. the fact Mexico is near the Caribbean sea makes no difference. I am aware of how this might look on your end and I'm not arguing, just explain myself. chiles from Mexico are an entire group by itself and are not usually related to the Caribbean chiles.

Another issue I would like to clear is:
djsketchie said:
Caribbean Red Habanero - I see "Red Habanero" in the name there, and it is sold as such from one of the most respected chile pepper institutions. It's a Habanero. It's red. Therefore in my eyes it is a variety of red Habanero that happens to be specific to the Caribbean.
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Caribbean Red is a VERY, VERY specific variety, just like the Bhut Jolokia, Trinidad Scorpion and so on. I believe, based on the name ("Red Caribbean Habanero") and picture on NMSU's site, it is not the same chile. the way they phrased it, it seems as if it truly is a red "Habanero" (C. chinense) from the Caribbean. meaning (with the picture to back up my claims) it is not the same as the Caribbean Red originating from Mexico. NMSU (New Mexico State University) will be the last source referring to Mexican chiles as Caribbean.

djsketchie said:
As much as I enjoy brushing up on my debate and reasoning skills, I see no reason to continue unless you can specifically comment on these points with relevant information. I think this post speaks for itself, and others can draw their own conclusions by evaluating the merit of both our arguments. I will say that I appreciate the general tone of our posts, and perhaps you can sticky this as proof that two people can debate a topic without resorting to flame wars :cheers:
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I'm glad you are enjoying the debate my friend. that's what forums are for.
 
If you want to get specific, the original landrace habaneros are orange and it can be argued that other colored C.Chinenses should be called something different, especially if they were bred with non-habs to get those colors. Now if the "reds" were natural mutants then you could argue that it is a real habanero, but then they still need to be hab shaped, hab flavored, and specifically originate from the Yucitan peninsula in Mexico(and not other parts of Mexico or Caribbean)
It always bothers me to see hab-nots or half-habs labelled as habaneros but this has been happening for many, many years and its now happening with bhuts, scorpions, 7pods, Scotch bonnets and many other specific C. Chinenses :(
 
POTAWIE said:
If you want to get specific, the original landrace habaneros are orange and it can be argued that other colored C.Chinenses should be called something different, especially if they were bred with non-habs to get those colors. Now if the "reds" were natural mutants then you could argue that it is a real habanero, but then they still need to be hab shaped, hab flavored, and specifically originate from the Yucitan peninsula in Mexico(and not other parts of Mexico or Caribbean)
It always bothers me to see hab-nots or half-habs labelled as habaneros but this has been happening for many, many years and its now happening with bhuts, scorpions, 7pods, Scotch bonnets and many other specific C. Chinenses :(
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djsketchie said:
If Caribbean Reds are not Habaneros, then why does the Chile Pepper Institute label them as such? Check out the link to their seed catalog:

NMSU CPI Red Caribbean Habanero

I am actually growing some of these out this summer, since I've heard that they have great flavor and are very prolific producers. I'll keep my eye out for the pod characteristics you mentioned OMRI, and give an update later this season.
Click to expand...
 
POTAWIE said:
If you want to get specific, the original landrace habaneros are orange and it can be argued that other colored C.Chinenses should be called something different, especially if they were bred with non-habs to get those colors. Now if the "reds" were natural mutants then you could argue that it is a real habanero, but then they still need to be hab shaped, hab flavored, and specifically originate from the Yucitan peninsula in Mexico(and not other parts of Mexico or Caribbean)
It always bothers me to see hab-nots or half-habs labelled as habaneros but this has been happening for many, many years and its now happening with bhuts, scorpions, 7pods, Scotch bonnets and many other specific C. Chinenses :(
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And that's why scientific names based on genetic testing (or at least very specific physical attributes that can be defined carefully) are helpful.

Is it true that orange habs actually originated from Mexico, or is it simply that they are most commonly thought of as being from there due to the Columbian Exchange (which apparently also complicated the scientific naming, which negates my first sentence. lol)? My understanding is that they came from Peru or Colombia, while others argue (based on the common name, I guess) that they came from Cuba, where they aren't common now.

What a fascinating mystery.
 
Nothing like a friendly pepper taxonomy debate to start the day... LOL.

Anyway, the CR is and has been on my top 5 list since the 90's. It basically got me started in this pepper growing madness we all share.

It's one of the most flavorful peppers and lends itself to smoked powders, Thai food, hot sauce, salsa, and jellies. Plus, it's just a nice plant to watch grow.
 
Not that this adds any value to this debate, but this was a very informative and good debate from all parties. Enjoyed reading :)
 
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