15 replies to this topic

[HeirloomChef]

What are people using for woozy cap liners? The person I'm working with on my sauce making process is insisting on a hermetic seal, which isn't possible with the normal liners for woozies, and I don't want to step up to larger bottles with metal caps with plastisol liners and be different than every other sauce out there. Quite frustrating, I'm pretty sure the Cholula hot sauce at my favorite Mexican restaurant has been open on the table there for months and that's OK...

[compmodder26]

I don't make sauces commercially but the caps I use are the ones from specialty bottle. They are just the basic lined cap and I can tell you that it indeed does provide an airtight seal. I bottle my sauce at 185 degrees and when I turn it upside down to sanitize the cap the heat causes a vacuum to form. So when you take the cap off for the first time you can indeed hear the vacuum seal break as air rushes in. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to use the standard lined caps.

Edited by compmodder26, 02 December 2011 - 03:44 PM.

[HeirloomChef]

Unfortunately this is a 'show me the research to back that up' situation. I might have to go for a induction sealing system to put foil seals on the bottles.

I talked with a co-packer about this issue and the person there told me it kills them sometimes to. They recently lost a BBQ sauce prospect because of this same issue and the prospect ended up going with a company in Michigan where the process authority would sign off on it.

[salsalady]

H-Chef-
get a different process authority!
One PA I used insisisted a product was acidified when I felt it was a formulated acid. Spent $50 for a different PA, they agreed with me that it was a formulated acid food, which gave it totally different processing requirements than an acidified food.

Foil liner on a hot sauce??? And how would that work if you wanted to use a dropper top?

I hate to say it, but these guys are not the gods some of them think they are. If you don't agree with the results, get a 2nd opinion. PA's will come to different conclusions when faced with the same information. And you do no HAVE to use the first conclusion you received. Go talk to someone else.

Edited by salsalady, 03 December 2011 - 12:51 PM.

[HeirloomChef]

H-Chef-
get a different process authority!
One PA I used insisisted a product was acidified when I felt it was a formulated acid. Spent $50 for a different PA, they agreed with me that it was a formulated acid food, which gave it totally different processing requirements than an acidified food.

Foil liner on a hot sauce??? And how would that work if you wanted to use a dropper top?

I hate to say it, but these guys are not the gods some of them think they are. If you don't agree with the results, get a 2nd opinion. PA's will come to different conclusions when faced with the same information. And you do no HAVE to use the first conclusion you received. Go talk to someone else.

Was your formulated acid food a hot sauce by chance? I know there is a line in the sand drawn there, but I haven't been able to get a definition of where the line is. The Ag dept person I talked to said the process authority is the one that makes that determination. They say the rules change too often for there to be an official document they could provide that would actually help you.

Sounds like I need to get a second opinion.

[salsalady]

Was your formulated acid food a hot sauce by chance? I know there is a line in the sand drawn there, but I haven't been able to get a definition of where the line is. The Ag dept person I talked to said the process authority is the one that makes that determination. They say the rules change too often for there to be an official document they could provide that would actually help you.

Sounds like I need to get a second opinion.

Yes, it was a vinegar based hot sauce, didn't have anything "potentially hazardous" or low acid in it. It had been previously licensed as an acid food, but I changed the ratio of vinegar in the recipe. The pH was still around 3.5 but the first PA, without even looking at the ingredients, made the determination that it was an acidified food based on the ratio of vinegar to the rest of the ingredients. And then he wouldn't return any phone calls to discuss it. So after 3 months, I said...well, never mind what I was saying about that PA.....I just found another lab and continued on.

General regulations say sauces/foods must be below 4.6. But it's more the ingredients that determine how it's classified. If it has a lot of stuff like fresh garlic, fresh onion, dairy, those are major low acid items they look closely at.

The Ag department follows the recommendations of the PAs They ensure the PA's recommended process is being followed by the processor.

[HeirloomChef]

Mine have around 15% vinegar by volume but aren't as low in PH as yours, 3.7 and 3.85. The 3.7 one I'm waiting on more feedback on, the other one I've made for a couple of years now and I'm happy with.

Frustrating playing a game with no rules. My day job these days is designing custom computer software, I'm used to making other people understand that there have to be rules, none of this 'maybe' stuff.

[salsalady]

Your pH's are at a good level, way below the 4.6 target. I get them below 4.0 and haven't had any issues getting them through the PA process, even though some of the sauces have stuff like carrots in them. The sauces range from 3.0-3.8. One with butter in it required that I get the BPCS certification even though the pH was 3.6.

It is frustrating trying to get answers. The same thing happens in our state. Take the one you're happy with and get it moving forward, starting with a second opinion. Good Luck~
SL

[Stemwinder]

What's the difference between plastisol liners and F217 liners? Is one just as good as the other? Are they the same? Does it even matter? Thx.

[salsalady]

ask the distributor/seller what's the difference. I don't know off the top of my head as I've never asked that question. Ask those who sell it, it's their job to know and explain it better than some folks on a forum. Now, that is not to say that someone here won't chime in with a knowledgable answer, just saying if you don't get an accurate, reliable answer talk to those who sell what you want to buy.

[The Hot Pepper]

What's the difference between plastisol liners and F217 liners? Is one just as good as the other? Are they the same? Does it even matter? Thx.

There's F217, PS, HIS, and Plastisol.

F217 - A foam polyethylene center between two sheets of LDPE. (basic hot sauce cap liner)

PS - Pressure Sensitive. Circular polystyrene foam units enhanced with adhesive dots dispersed around the perimeter of the liner. When under pressure, the dots split and enable the liner to adhere to the container. (an upgraded liner)

HIS - Heat Induction Seal. Metallic disc and plastic film that is machine-applied only. (think ketchup in the squeeze bottle)

​Plastinol - PVC gaskets attached to metal lids for glass containers that create a vacuum seal. (think salsa, ketchup glass bottle)

[dannyboy885]

Im with salsalady on this one...Find a new producer! I talked to a chef that makes his own sauce for his customers and he asked me how much I paid for recipe development. When he told me "about 4 grand" I told him he just wasted about 3,500 dollars. Shop around! There's plenty of options now a days.

[3/5King]

I'm going to store my hot sauce in Grolsch bottles.

[salsalady]

I'm going to store my hot sauce in Grolsch bottles.

cool- need any help procuring empty grolsch bottles?

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

I'm going to store my hot sauce in Grolsch bottles.

That is a *great* idea - I love that stuff. And as a bonus you get to drink yourself to oblivion in order to have enough bottles to make a batch!

Though in the US we butcher the name - I lived in Holland for 2 years and they have a soft "G", roll their "R", use an "O" like "faux" and pronounce "SH like we pronounce "SS".

So all told it's "chgrrrrrrOlss"

This has been your Dutch lesson for today.

[-Pablo-]

If the sauce is thicker this would be awesome! Mine are a bit more fluid and need an insert.

FWIW, specialty bottle will sell you bulk-supply swingtop bottles like Grolsch - http://www.specialty...pbottlesmi.aspx