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moruga scorpion new hottest in the world


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#41 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:46 PM

over a 25% increase over the previous record seems like a bit much
I think the mean should be used, not the 1 result that was possibly way hotter than the rest
All this really proves is that The Scorpion Moruga blend has had one test of 2 mil and many tests way, way lower so I guess sometimes it is the hottest (at least once) but other times it isn't :)


The CPI uses mean testing for their records and usually use large samples I believe. The Bhut Jolokia record was with mean testing. You would have to ask the guys down in Oz what their protocol was for testing the Butch T but I'd imagine that the mean result grown at the CPI wouldn't be any higher than 1.3M with a high probability that it is somewhere within 5% ballpark of the other scorpion testing. That being said, all of those results could probably be said to be within a 5% accuracy (under the controlled CPI conditions) and so you could see that list shift around quite easily. The TSMB has such a wide variety of results its stability almost comes into question, and I'd have to wonder how much of an outlier that 2M result really was. If they tested 100 pods or more I'm curious as to what percentage were >1.5M

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 12:48 PM.

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#42 POTAWIE

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:49 PM

Then why the mention of over 2 million SHU if the important number is the mean at only 1207764SHU
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#43 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 12:55 PM

Then why the mention of over 2 million SHU if the important number is the mean at only 1207764SHU


They mention it because it is an unheard of number and gains them publicity, however the 1.2M is the highest mean in the table giving them the right to call it the hottest. 2 mil is one hell of a wow factor don't you think? I'd probably open with it too! I think the fact that they used new testing for the Scorpion alongside it gives them the right to claim that it was the conditions that resulted in the 1.4M record, not the genetics. IMHO the Butch T and landrace scorpions are just too similar to claim that they will give you vastly different heat results in all conditions, but in order for this record to stand they should probably have taken seeds from the record holders. You know for science and all. Looking at the table I think you could make an argument that the Chocolate 7 is the most consistent of the supers and because its mean is too close to the Morouga to call them different, I might just take the leap and say Chocolate 7 is the most consistently hot pepper, but the TSMB has the potential to create the hottest pods. Or something along those lines.

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 01:00 PM.

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#44 POTAWIE

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:00 PM

I personally believe the landrace scorpion is a lot milder than the Butch T and the Moruga red scorpion
The mean # is not what is required by Guinness, and only one sample is(was) needed. When the "Naga viper" got the record, only one tiny sample was submitted and testers at Warwick were not confident in their own findings
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#45 AlabamaJack

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:02 PM

The CPI uses mean testing for their records and usually use large samples I believe. The Bhut Jolokia record was with mean testing. You would have to ask the guys down in Oz what their protocol was for testing the Butch T but I'd imagine that the mean result grown at the CPI wouldn't be any higher than 1.3M with a high probability that it is somewhere within 5% ballpark of the other scorpion testing. That being said, all of those results could probably be said to be within a 5% accuracy (under the controlled CPI conditions) and so you could see that list shift around quite easily. The TSMB has such a wide variety of results its stability almost comes into question, and I'd have to wonder how much of an outlier that 2M result really was. If they tested 100 pods or more I'm curious as to what percentage were >1.5M


sorry mrz1988 that is incorrect...they used the high for the Bhut Jolokia...most trials came in around 800K +/- 200,000....I am going on memory so these may not be the exact numbers, but they submitted the highest test result for the world record for the Bhut...

Edited by AlabamaJack, 07 February 2012 - 01:03 PM.

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#46 Eephus Man

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:10 PM

Then why the mention of over 2 million SHU if the important number is the mean at only 1207764SHU


See below as +1 for mrz. Also, from a marketing perspective it is so much sweeter. From a journalistic perspective, it makes a better story. And so on...

They mention it because it is an unheard of number and gains them publicity, however the 1.2M is the highest mean in the table giving them the right to call it the hottest. 2 mil is one hell of a wow factor don't you think? I'd probably open with it too! I think the fact that they used new testing for the Scorpion alongside it gives them the right to claim that it was the conditions that resulted in the 1.4M record, not the genetics. IMHO the Butch T and landrace scorpions are just too similar to claim that they will give you vastly different heat results in all conditions, but in order for this record to stand they should probably have taken seeds from the record holders. You know for science and all. Looking at the table I think you could make an argument that the Chocolate 7 is the most consistent of the supers and because its mean is too close to the Morouga to call them different, I might just take the leap and say Chocolate 7 is the most consistently hot pepper, but the TSMB has the potential to create the hottest pods. Or something along those lines.



#47 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:20 PM

"Once the fruit had matured on the plants in
the field, a single harvest of 25 random
mature fruits from at least 10 plants in each
replication was bulked. After harvest, the
sample was dried and ground. The extraction
of the capsaicinoids and the estimation of
capsaicinoid amounts followed the highperformance
liquid chromatography (HPLC)
procedures for the short run method as
described by Collins et al. (1995). The HPLC
data were converted from parts per million to
SHU by multiplying the parts per million
by 16. Samples of the ground fruits were
also sent to two commercial laboratories,
Southwest Bio-Laboratories (Las Cruces,
N.M.) and Ag-Biotech (Gilroy, Calif.), for
heat level analysis to validate our results."

...

"The growing season in 2005 was favorable
for the production of fruits on all three
chile pepper cultivars. The environment is
known to affect the heat level of chile pepper
cultivars (Harvell and Bosland, 1997).
Having a replicated field trial with standard
control cultivars allows for a better comparison
of heat levels among cultivars. The
HPLC analysis revealed that orange habanero
had a mean heat level of 357,729 SHUs,
which is in the range normally seen for this
cultivar in Las Cruces, N.M. (Table 2). The
results of the analysis for ‘Bhut Jolokia’
indicated that it possessed an extremely high
heat level, 1,001,304 SHUs, whereas ‘Red
Savina’ recorded a heat level of 248,556
SHUs. Independent tests confirmed this high
level of heat for ‘Bhut Jolokia’ with 927,199
SHUs and 879,953 SHUs from Southwest
Bio-Laboratories and Ag-Biotech, respectively."

They used the maximum test answer but not the maximum result, but you will note that they used THEIR OWN result. This is more important than the fact that they used the HIGHEST result since they can do multiple tests. I believe it was in fact multiple samples that were tested to get that result. Each sample used 25 pods randomly selected. The paper was a bit unclear as to whether they had more than one sample tested at the CPI lab (it seems like they did, they used the word mean for their samples), but they only sent one sample to each of the 3rd party labs. At the very least it was a mean result of 25 pods from various plants, so yes, it is a mean. I believe the lab at the CPI used multiple samples and had the results which they compared to other fruits so they used their own source as a more reliable estimate. This is why I like the CPI testing, they don't use one result that got spit back from a single sample and a single lab. Of course then you have to answer what the 'max' 'min' and 'mean' values mean here, whether they are results from multiple labs, and how many pods went into each of these samples. If you can find more specific information I'd like to see it. Thanks guys.

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 01:26 PM.

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#48 POTAWIE

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:21 PM

I can just see where this is leading too. Everybody, start your stressing!! :)
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#49 AlabamaJack

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:25 PM

believe what you will mrz....no issue with me...
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#50 Hammerfall

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:29 PM

i like thet stats of the Choc 7 pot :)

too bad i only have one seed that sporuted this year...

is the red and yellow morouga are in the same "heat range" ?


Sorry Guys, i meant T.S Mourouge Red and T.S Morouga Yellow.


What is the defenition of "LANDRACE" ?

i said i love the spec of the Choc because the "lowest" is higer than a lot!)
so there is much change to have something in the millions on each pepper!

Anyway im far from the "eat a scorp a day" so it's just nice to see some evolution and prepare to see on EBAY "MOROUGA SEED" foir sell at a crazy price ....

I have a last question... I have seeds of "7 pot Chiguana #2 ml" anyone can tell me more about those?
heat level (approix in SHU) and taste ... good taste? any picture for me?
Thnaks

Edited by Hammerfall, 07 February 2012 - 01:31 PM.

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#51 POTAWIE

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:34 PM

If you can find more specific information I'd like to see it. Thanks guys.


Now some of you think Paul took an average of Bhut samples. Paul was looking for the hottest Bhut samples. And it took a few seasons to nail that down. Why???Because the Bhut Jolokia averages between 300,000-700,000 on average. Ask any major Hot sauce maker that tests their mash, powder and dried pods. The Bhut Jolokia rarely goes over 700,000. But if fed right and stressed right it can get close to 1,000,000 or just go over it. Paul made a composite sample and tested in at just over 1,001,000. He then sent the other two parts out to two other labs. One came in at just over 800,000 and the other at over 900,000. The over 1,000,00 test was submitted to Guinness and accepted. Remember previous record was 577,000. So any one of the three tests could be used...

http://www.thehotpep...20viper__st__60

Edited by POTAWIE, 07 February 2012 - 01:36 PM.

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#52 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:43 PM

"Why???Because the Bhut Jolokia averages between 300,000-700,000 on average."

This is one hell of a strong statement with no scientific research or citation behind it. Without a source I can't assume it to be true.

Also:

"Having a replicated field trial with standard
control cultivars allows for a better comparison
of heat levels among cultivars. The
HPLC analysis revealed that orange habanero
had a mean heat level of 357,729 SHUs,
which is in the range normally seen for this
cultivar in Las Cruces, N.M. (Table 2). The
results of the analysis for ‘Bhut Jolokia’
indicated that it possessed an extremely high
heat level, 1,001,304 SHUs" (CPI 2005)

This suggests that the orange habanero performing under the same controlled conditions had a normal heat level and that the mean was tested for. Completely contradictory. I'm not trying to start an opinion argument here, I'm trying to make this science based, and so far this paper is the only scientific study I've found on the Bhut Jolokia, even though it is incredibly vague of a paper.

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 01:45 PM.

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#53 Eephus Man

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:47 PM

What is the defenition of "LANDRACE" ?

Thnaks


Great question. Got me to go find out...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landrace

#54 AlabamaJack

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:52 PM

"Why???Because the Bhut Jolokia averages between 300,000-700,000 on average."

This is one hell of a strong statement with no scientific research or citation behind it. Without a source I can't assume it to be true.


This suggests that the orange habanero performing under the same controlled conditions had a normal heat level and that the mean was tested for. Completely contradictory. I'm not trying to start an opinion argument here, I'm trying to make this science based, and so far this paper is the only scientific study I've found on the Bhut Jolokia, even though it is incredibly vague of a paper.




mrz...we have given you the pertinent facts written by someone that worked with Bosland on subsequent testing...so I am saying why would Jim lie about this?...he has nothing to gain...

notice the picture of the guy in the original TSMB photo...yup...that is Jim Duffy (habanero500) and he is in the know on these matters...

I got a feeling that Jim may pop in at any moment to comment on this...
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#55 gumbii

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

now i want some choco 7pot seeds...

#56 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

mrz...we have given you the pertinent facts written by someone that worked with Bosland on subsequent testing...so I am saying why would Jim lie about this?...he has nothing to gain...

notice the picture of the guy in the original TSMB photo...yup...that is Jim Duffy (habanero500) and he is in the know on these matters...

I got a feeling that Jim may pop in at any moment to comment on this...


I'm just trying to figure this all out in a scientific manner that's all... I'm a scientist by nature so I have to wait for peer reviewed studies and that's what we're doing here is peer reviewing these two studies. Jim Duffy is someone who I would expect to have a great knowledge about the topics, but in a research institute I would expect to have research papers published that reflect these findings. What he is suggesting here is that the only research paper that they've ever published on the hottest pepper in the world has vain intentions and in reality the results have been skewed in their favor for publicity. I don't doubt this fact, but it seems that we are going back and forth saying "Paul Bosland's paper says this" and "Jim Duffy says this". In general pods and samples can vary in heat by an enormous amount, and I can accept that. I am trying to find what I can expect for results if I were to try this experiment on my own, assuming I had a lab that can perform HPLC. Maybe I'm giving CPI too much credit, I don't know. I want the data sets and I want a very thorough explanation of the procedure of these studies, both how the plants were grown and how the data was collected. Until I get that information, I, as a scientist, am forced to be skeptical. I would love to interview Jim Duffy for a paper I'm writing about HPLC testing and may try to do so.

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 02:21 PM.

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#57 Eephus Man

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:12 PM

now i want some choco 7pot seeds...


That was my reaction, too. But I know better than to think I'd enjoy them other than watching them grow!

I'm just trying to figure this all out in a scientific manner that's all... I'm a scientist by nature so I have to wait for peer reviewed studies and that's what we're doing here is peer reviewing these two studies. Jim Duffy is someone who I would expect to have a great knowledge about the topics, but in a research institute I would expect to have research papers published that reflect these findings. What he is suggesting here is that the only research paper that they've ever published on the hottest pepper in the world has vain intentions and in reality the results have been skewed in their favor for publicity. I don't doubt this fact, but it seems that we are going back and forth saying "Paul Bosland's paper says this" and "Jim Duffy says this". In general pods and samples can vary in heat by an enormous amount, and I can accept that. I am trying to find what I can expect for results if I were to try this experiment on my own, assuming I had a lab that can perform HPLC. Maybe I'm giving CPI too much credit, I don't know. I want the data sets and I want a very thorough explanation of the procedure of these studies, both how the plants were grown and how the data was collected. Until I get that information, I, as a scientist, am forced to be skeptical.

I hope that's understood.


I don't understand how it's "skewed for publicity"? Finding the most newsworthy piece from a study isn't "skewing", it's finding the hook. That may not be "favorable" or "pure", but in PR, marketing and journalism, that's what's more likely to lead as the headline, and what might make the difference between the study being covered or not. As a journalist, I am forced to recognize the newsworthiness of an item and the willingness of my audience to pay attention to it. And I recognize that a good research institute knows what to say in the media release/pitch/RFI to get their study coverage. I don't see that being selective about information release is mutually exclusive from responsible experimentation. In fact, I know that the two can co-exist just fine. As I'm sure you can understand, the world is a multi-disciplinary place. :D

#58 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:14 PM

Okay before I make anyone else all mad here's what I'm taking in from this thread and some further research into what happened in this test study:

1. The CPI publishes work functioning mainly to try to break records and not for scientific study, their research should not be considered to be a reliable estimate for mean SHU results on a large scale.

2. The CPI stresses their plants and grows over many seasons to ensure the highest SHU test readings. It can be assumed that the test results of the Bhut Jolokia from the 2005 research paper are skewn high because of ideal growing conditions in that season.

3. The most recent test study that this thread describes uses samples from only five chilies from each strain. They were NOT tested in unison but each chili was tested separately for a total of only 25 data points. This is simply not a large enough sample to be an effective SHU reading.

4. The 2M reading was from a SINGLE POD. These results should not be expected from any normal growth pattern.

5. A reliable test study should have five data points for each strain, each using a large sample of pods. I would say there should be a minimum of 100 pods used from the same season. There should be control pods tested as well from different strains before we can begin making assumptions about the hottest pods.

6. This test study should be used for entertainment purposes only

Thanks for the feedback I'm taking a lot more in about how the CPI testing works.

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 02:19 PM.

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#59 POTAWIE

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:18 PM

Better than the Red savina, naga viper, and infinity where only 1 sample was used for a Guinness record
Guinness records should be used for entertainment purposes only as well :)
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#60 mrz1988

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

Better than the Red savina, naga viper, and infinity where only 1 sample was used for a Guinness record
Guinness records should be used for entertainment purposes only as well :)


Imagine if the 2M marker becomes the new record! I'd want to puke! I'm okay with the veiled Butch T results for now...

I'd love to see someone on this forum try to start a TRUE scientific study on the hottest peppers rather than just growing for a big number. Controlled study of the pods on a large scale for testing only. Large samples, dried, ground, thoroughly mixed, then multiple samples tested for each strain of at least 4-5 strains. If anyone on this forum would undertake that study I would gladly donate some $$ for the cause. I suppose you could sell the leftover powder to help fund it as well. We need some sort of testing standards for these damn guiness records...

Edited by mrz1988, 07 February 2012 - 02:26 PM.

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