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capsaicin Capsaicin Cramps

Hello everyone, this is my first thread here so I've tried to post this in what I hope is the correct forum.
 
Anyway, I would like some advice on how to prevent/cure capsaicin cramps after eating fresh pods. I'm a relatively new chilehead that just got in to spicy foods/peppers about seven months ago. Since then I've upped my tolerance enough to where I felt less uncomfortable trying a super hot. The first super hot that I tried was a fresh Florida grown ghost pepper pod that really packed some heat, which was quite the experience. The problem wasn't the heat, but the cramps and bloating that happened after consuming the pepper, which had me in serious pain and nearly made me vomit.
 
What's the most effective way to prevent this? I want to move my way up to the hotter super hots and build a better tolerance to hot sauce, but if I have to endure that sort of pain then I might just forego the whole thing. 
 
Thanks,
 
Brandon
 
Best way I have found is to drink some milk beforehand as well as maybe some peanut butter or bread. Having something on your stomach really helps. Other individuals will drink some imodium or pepto bismol to help with it.
 
Dude I am the same way.... the burn doesn't hurt my mouth too much but the next morning is SO BRUTAL haha.  So far,  eating chiles on a full stomach is the only thing I've found that reduces the negative side effects 
 
:welcome: to THP, ~727! 
 
Starches and dairy in the stomach help to lessen "intestinal discomforts" on the inside.  I haven't heard of anything helping the Afterburner effects on the other end of things other than...
TP in the Freezer
PrepH Wipes in the freezer
ice packs........
 
;)
 
Cap cramps are a tough thing to prevent. My routine before a review is to eat a peanut butter sandwich and drink a glass of milk. After I eat the pepper, I will drink another glass of milk. If the pepper was extremely hot, then I eat another peanut butter sandwich aftwrwards. That usually buys me 4-5 hours of relief. After that, if I start to feel cramps coming on, I'll drink another glass of milk. That normally stalls the cramps long enough to let the pepper move out of my stomach.

I tried tmudder's elixir, and it didn't work much for me. Other's have had great success,with it though.
Tmudder's elixir is 1/2 cup Greek yogurt, 1 cup whole milk, 2 tbsp peanut butter, and 1 whole banana. You blend all of those together. Drink half the concoction before eating the pepper and drink the rest afterwards.
 
Don't eat whole superhots????
 
May be the pepper?
 
I can't eat a raw Bell pepper without doubling up for an hour or so, but cooked? No problem.
The only super to do that amount of damage was a Reaper (and 1/2) and my usual "pepper bender" that I encounter when I get a box of mixed pods and have to try a bit of evey new taste as soon as the box is opened.
 
I like my peppers mostly IN or ON something, as a slice, diced, smoked, pureed, flaked, powdered, sauced, etc ad infinatum.
 
The best way not to get drunk is to not drink, doesn't the same logic apply here?
 
Don't be in a hurry to up your tolerance, what do you have to prove, you know what I mean?
 
Sit back enjoy your food, all of the flavors that is....over time your tolerance will improve and you might notice you need a little more chile in your food, if you never need superhots, then so be it......Enjoy your food!!!!!
 
Sorry I'm no fun.......
 
There is TMudder`s elixir. Brian has kindly given his experience and the recipe for it above.
 
I developed something similar, independent of Todd, and the recipe is this,
 
1 scoop whey protein powder (28-30g protein). Any protein will do if you are dairy intolerant
8 oz water. Full fat milk or skimmed milk are fine, but I don`t find they make any difference to the results.
3 large tablespoons peanut butter. More if you are that way inclined (I don`t like peanut butter). I`ve also use almond butter and cashew butter with the same results. 
3 tablespoons olive oil (any cooking oil will do). I like the taste of olive oil a lot.
1 ripe banana
juice of one lime
3 or 4 ice-cubes
 
Throw in a blender and smash it all to bits. Drink 30 minutes before eating.
 
I have played around with the recipe quite a bit and this is about as good as I can get it. Occasionally, I will still get mild to moderate stomach cramps. If you then take 2 tablespoons of oil, it will quell the fire inside. If the cramps start to come back, repeat the 2 tablespoons of oil.
DO NOT DRINK ANYTHING THAT IS WATER-BASED, like soda or fruit juice. If I drink milk at this point, it also makes things worse for me.
 
Capsaicin and it`s metabolites are fat-soluble chemicals, insoluble in water, not proteins. They can bind to proteins non-specifically, but prefer to be where it`s oily or fatty. There are enzymes in the stomach that can break down fats, protein and sugars, plus the pH of your stomach is around 1.5, i.e. extremely acidic. The gaul bladder also pumps bile acids in there and bile acids are fantastic detergents, which means they can make fats soluble in water. So, stuff is either broken down in the stomach or made soluble in water and passed along. Not all that much is absorbed into the blood stream through the stomach, that mainly takes place in the small intestines. 
 
Why do we get stomach cramps after eating peppers? Partly it`s due to high capsaicin levels and partly it`s due to unknown stuff in the peppers. Nagas give me cramps, but aren`t very hot, in my opinion. 7-pot prinos are raging hot, but don`t give me cramps. Carolina Reapers give me the mother of all cramps, but aren`t anywhere near as hot as 7-pot browns, which don`t bother my stomach much. 
 
Back to capsaicin. It acts on a receptor called TRPV1, which is linked to a heat-sensor system in the mouth, esophagus and stomach (and skin etc). That sensing has to be almost instantaneous, so you get rid of what`s burning you, so  it`s linked to nerves that send the signal to the brain at insane speeds, so it is almost instantaneous. 
 
TRPV1 receptors are also linked to nerves that sense pain. Sensing pain is called nociception. The TRPV1 receptors in your stomach seem to send a signal to the brain that says "holy shit, that`s painful" rather than "holy shit, that`s hot". The response of your stomach is them to try and rid itself of the offending pain by forcing the stomach to cramp, leading to vomiting. Now with capsaicin the vomiting part isn`t nearly so strong a response, most of the time. So think of cramps as a prelude to vomiting and as a signal to stop you eating any more of whatever it was that caused pain.
 
The trick, then, is to stop the capsaicin from acting on the TRPV1 receptors in the stomach wall. That`s why things high in fat help. They allow the capsaicin to move into the oily stuff in your stomach and not be able to get at the stomach wall. Cell membranes are made of fat, so that`s where the capsaicin wants to be if there is nothing in your stomach other than the normal water-based acid. Foods helps because it is a mix of protein, carbohydrate and fat, largely. Proteins and carbohydrates cab bind to oily things like capsaicin non-specifically, as does the fibre in your diet, so bulk food helps. The fats in the food give the capsaicin somewhere to hang out instead of your stomach wall. 
 
So, it stands to reason that if you have non-specific stuff to bind up capsaicin (proteins are the best at that), some fats (peanut butter, olive oil etc) and some bulk fibre (banana), you are going to have some success at stopping the capsaicin getting to your stomach wall. So sure, a meal also helps, but if you are eating 10 or more superhots a week, you`ll end up being 350lbs in about 5 minutes.
 
There is also something to the idea that drinking a thickish shake-type drink coats your pipes and stomach better than just eating a meal. 
 
Capsaicin is also absorbed by the gut and does get into the blood stream. Not all of it by any stretch, but if you take a lot of Vitamin B a lot passes straight through you and only some is absorbed. Capsaicin is the same, although it varies a lot between individuals. I can honestly say that eating a couple of superhots does not give me much in the way of ring-burn. Some, sure, but not a lot. However, I do get hot pee, showing that it`s being filtered out of the blood via the kidneys. Some people don`t get that and more capsaicin passes through the intestines. It just depends how you are put together. 
 
Ok. Questions from anyone?
 
Nigel said:
Capsaicin and it`s metabolites are fat-soluble chemicals, insoluble in water, not proteins. They can bind to proteins non-specifically, but prefer to be where it`s oily or fatty. There are enzymes in the stomach that can break down fats, protein and sugars, plus the pH of your stomach is around 1.5, i.e. extremely acidic. The gaul bladder also pumps bile acids in there and bile acids are fantastic detergents, which means they can make fats soluble in water. So, stuff is either broken down in the stomach or made soluble in water and passed along. Not all that much is absorbed into the blood stream through the stomach, that mainly takes place in the small intestines. 
 
Why do we get stomach cramps after eating peppers? Partly it`s due to high capsaicin levels and partly it`s due to unknown stuff in the peppers. Nagas give me cramps, but aren`t very hot, in my opinion. 7-pot prinos are raging hot, but don`t give me cramps. Carolina Reapers give me the mother of all cramps, but aren`t anywhere near as hot as 7-pot browns, which don`t bother my stomach much. 
 
Back to capsaicin. It acts on a receptor called TRPV1, which is linked to a heat-sensor system in the mouth, esophagus and stomach (and skin etc). That sensing has to be almost instantaneous, so you get rid of what`s burning you, so  it`s linked to nerves that send the signal to the brain at insane speeds, so it is almost instantaneous. 
 
TRPV1 receptors are also linked to nerves that sense pain. Sensing pain is called nociception. The TRPV1 receptors in your stomach seem to send a signal to the brain that says "holy shit, that`s painful" rather than "holy shit, that`s hot". The response of your stomach is them to try and rid itself of the offending pain by forcing the stomach to cramp, leading to vomiting. Now with capsaicin the vomiting part isn`t nearly so strong a response, most of the time. So think of cramps as a prelude to vomiting and as a signal to stop you eating any more of whatever it was that caused pain.
 
The trick, then, is to stop the capsaicin from acting on the TRPV1 receptors in the stomach wall. That`s why things high in fat help. They allow the capsaicin to move into the oily stuff in your stomach and not be able to get at the stomach wall. Cell membranes are made of fat, so that`s where the capsaicin wants to be if there is nothing in your stomach other than the normal water-based acid. Foods helps because it is a mix of protein, carbohydrate and fat, largely. Proteins and carbohydrates cab bind to oily things like capsaicin non-specifically, as does the fibre in your diet, so bulk food helps. The fats in the food give the capsaicin somewhere to hang out instead of your stomach wall. 
 
So, it stands to reason that if you have non-specific stuff to bind up capsaicin (proteins are the best at that), some fats (peanut butter, olive oil etc) and some bulk fibre (banana), you are going to have some success at stopping the capsaicin getting to your stomach wall. So sure, a meal also helps, but if you are eating 10 or more superhots a week, you`ll end up being 350lbs in about 5 minutes.
 
There is also something to the idea that drinking a thickish shake-type drink coats your pipes and stomach better than just eating a meal. 
 
Capsaicin is also absorbed by the gut and does get into the blood stream. Not all of it by any stretch, but if you take a lot of Vitamin B a lot passes straight through you and only some is absorbed. Capsaicin is the same, although it varies a lot between individuals. I can honestly say that eating a couple of superhots does not give me much in the way of ring-burn. Some, sure, but not a lot. However, I do get hot pee, showing that it`s being filtered out of the blood via the kidneys. Some people don`t get that and more capsaicin passes through the intestines. It just depends how you are put together. 
 
Ok. Questions from anyone?
That certainly explains a lot to me. I ate my 1st superhot (bhut jolokia) 2 weeks ago, and got no cramping afterward, or even the next day. Generally when I eat too much hot food, I'll get wicked cramps the next day right before it evacuates. Didn't have that with the bhut, and after reading this think it may have had something to do with my dinner that night. My wife cooked up pecan shrimp, a Louisiana version of my Uncle's macadamia shrimp. Lots of oil and fats in that dish. If that's the case, going to have to cook it again next time I try something above my tolerance level.
 
Nigel said:
Capsaicin and it`s metabolites are fat-soluble chemicals, insoluble in water, not proteins. They can bind to proteins non-specifically, but prefer to be where it`s oily or fatty. There are enzymes in the stomach that can break down fats, protein and sugars, plus the pH of your stomach is around 1.5, i.e. extremely acidic. The gaul bladder also pumps bile acids in there and bile acids are fantastic detergents, which means they can make fats soluble in water. So, stuff is either broken down in the stomach or made soluble in water and passed along. Not all that much is absorbed into the blood stream through the stomach, that mainly takes place in the small intestines. 
 
Why do we get stomach cramps after eating peppers? Partly it`s due to high capsaicin levels and partly it`s due to unknown stuff in the peppers. Nagas give me cramps, but aren`t very hot, in my opinion. 7-pot prinos are raging hot, but don`t give me cramps. Carolina Reapers give me the mother of all cramps, but aren`t anywhere near as hot as 7-pot browns, which don`t bother my stomach much. 
 
Back to capsaicin. It acts on a receptor called TRPV1, which is linked to a heat-sensor system in the mouth, esophagus and stomach (and skin etc). That sensing has to be almost instantaneous, so you get rid of what`s burning you, so  it`s linked to nerves that send the signal to the brain at insane speeds, so it is almost instantaneous. 
 
TRPV1 receptors are also linked to nerves that sense pain. Sensing pain is called nociception. The TRPV1 receptors in your stomach seem to send a signal to the brain that says "holy shit, that`s painful" rather than "holy shit, that`s hot". The response of your stomach is them to try and rid itself of the offending pain by forcing the stomach to cramp, leading to vomiting. Now with capsaicin the vomiting part isn`t nearly so strong a response, most of the time. So think of cramps as a prelude to vomiting and as a signal to stop you eating any more of whatever it was that caused pain.
 
The trick, then, is to stop the capsaicin from acting on the TRPV1 receptors in the stomach wall. That`s why things high in fat help. They allow the capsaicin to move into the oily stuff in your stomach and not be able to get at the stomach wall. Cell membranes are made of fat, so that`s where the capsaicin wants to be if there is nothing in your stomach other than the normal water-based acid. Foods helps because it is a mix of protein, carbohydrate and fat, largely. Proteins and carbohydrates cab bind to oily things like capsaicin non-specifically, as does the fibre in your diet, so bulk food helps. The fats in the food give the capsaicin somewhere to hang out instead of your stomach wall. 
 
So, it stands to reason that if you have non-specific stuff to bind up capsaicin (proteins are the best at that), some fats (peanut butter, olive oil etc) and some bulk fibre (banana), you are going to have some success at stopping the capsaicin getting to your stomach wall. So sure, a meal also helps, but if you are eating 10 or more superhots a week, you`ll end up being 350lbs in about 5 minutes.
 
There is also something to the idea that drinking a thickish shake-type drink coats your pipes and stomach better than just eating a meal. 
 
Capsaicin is also absorbed by the gut and does get into the blood stream. Not all of it by any stretch, but if you take a lot of Vitamin B a lot passes straight through you and only some is absorbed. Capsaicin is the same, although it varies a lot between individuals. I can honestly say that eating a couple of superhots does not give me much in the way of ring-burn. Some, sure, but not a lot. However, I do get hot pee, showing that it`s being filtered out of the blood via the kidneys. Some people don`t get that and more capsaicin passes through the intestines. It just depends how you are put together. 
 
Ok. Questions from anyone?
 
 
Yes. Did you spend last night in a Holiday Inn Express?
 
Nigel said:
 
However, I do get hot pee, showing that it`s being filtered out of the blood via the kidneys. Some people don`t get that and more capsaicin passes through the intestines. It just depends how you are put together. 
 
Im so glad im not the only one who had the hot pee! 
I thought it was weird, but i didnt wanna start a thread on the matter (lest people say "youve got the clap!")

I made a jalfrezhi the other night which i added one red bhut and half a teaspoon of chocolate bhut powder. Its the first time my wife has said "you crossed the line, this is too hot!"
I ALWAYS handle chillies with gloves on. but when i went for a pee it started to tingle. next time was more so, and then hotter still the next time (yeah i was drinking a few beers with a curry, which is every Englishmans god given right!).
It wasnt the same feeling as when you accidently touched the old fella without washing your hands properly. it was actually not unpleasant.

I had wondered if it was all made up in my head. because my entire body felt like i was on fire and i was rushing off the endorphines.. glad to know im not the only one!

I had figured that because my kidneys were working double time to get rid of the beer i was drinking, that perhaps capsaicin was also being processed and getting to the kidneys. But i doubted myself a little, because the only compounds i can think of that pass unharmed through urine are Muscimol (which gives the hallucinogenic effect when the body processes Amantia Muscaria, fly agaric mushrooms) and 3-4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine, MDMA (ecstacy).

Glad to see a bit of confirmation to my initial theory. im sure it did my urinary tract a bit of good too!
 
I ate a Fatalii Jigsaw and had 4 hours of insane pain down below. It was the most pain I`ve ever had in my pee. Miserable, horrible pain!
 
It varies a lot between individuals. My friend Paul also gets hot pee, but many people don`t.
 
Now about that Fly Agaric...................
 
Nigel said:
I ate a Fatalii Jigsaw and had 4 hours of insane pain down below. It was the most pain I`ve ever had in my pee. Miserable, horrible pain!
 
It varies a lot between individuals. My friend Paul also gets hot pee, but many people don`t.
 
Now about that Fly Agaric...................
for fly agaric, the myth goes that they used to collect reindeer pee to get the high. The raw mushroom has muscaric acid, which makes you incredibly ill as your body breaks it down into muscimol (the lovely bit that sits you down for a chat with god and Jim Morrisson). so the reindeer pee bypasses the bit where you are violently ill.
The other way to break it down is basically create a "mash" like brewers do with malt.. make a solution in warm water and hold it at a certain temperature until the conversion is complete.

Oh, and we are coming up to that magical time of year! 
mushrooms-amanita-24.jpg
 
Most beautiful mushroom ever.
 
We used to find them a lot in Scotland, but alas, no Reindeer. I had heard that Reindeer search for them specifically, to get high. Reindeer pee, eh??? I wonder if there are any members from northern Scandinavia on here??????? 

As far as metabolism of capsaicin goes vs excretion unchanged. This is in animal studies, so it would be interesting to know which (if any) of the metabolites were hot. 
 
 



[SIZE=12pt]Capsaicinoids, when administered to rats intragastrically are readily absorbed and metabolized to a great extent in the liver before reaching the general circulation and extra hepatic organs (Donnerer [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]et al.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt], 1990). In vitro and in vivo studies have shown that capsaicinoids are metabolized by different pathways: (1) hydrolysis of the acid-amide-bond and oxidative deamination of the formed vanillylamine, (2) hydroxylation of the vanillyl ring, possibly via epoxidation, (3) one electron oxidation of the ring hydroxyl forming phenoxy radicals and capsaicinoid dimers, (4) oxidation at the terminal carbon of the side chain (Surh and Lee, 1995). Within 48 hrs after oral administration of dihydrocapsaicin to male rats, 8.7% of the dose were excreted unchanged in urine and 10% in faeces. Metabolites found in urine were vanillylamine (4.7%), vanillin (4.6%) vanillyl alcohol (37.6%) and vanillic acid (19.2%) in free form or as glucuronides (Kawada and Iwai, 1985).
Based on results of Miller [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]et al. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](1983), who demonstrated the covalent binding of dihydrocapsaicin to hepatic microsomal proteins, the formation of electrophilic intermediates (arene epoxides, phenoxy radicals or quinone type derivatives formed after O-demethylation) and subsequent covalent binding to cellular macromolecules is discussed to play a role in the etiology of capsaicin-induced toxicity including mutagenicity and carcinogenicity (Surh and Lee, 1995). [/SIZE]
 
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