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breeding A couple of questions crossing annum x chinense

Hey guys I have a few questions about crossing peppers..I hope I can somehow ask this so it makes sense..
I have just attempted to cross a hot cayenne (mother) with a 7pot jonah (father) using the guide on the fatalii website. I removed the petals, and the stamens from a couple of flowers that were set to open soon and pollinated with pollen from the Jonah
 
I had been looking at the crossing compatibility chart of annum x chinense and I see that its listed as “F1 hybrids partially fertile”. What does this really mean?
-Does this mean that the seeds produced by the pods would be “partially fertile” as in only some of the seeds will be viable?
-Or does this mean the crossed pod may not even produce seeds?
-OR does it mean that once the cross is grown - the pods produced may not produce viable seed? If this is the case would all pods on the plant be infertile? Or would some pods potentially produce seed while others won’t?
 
Second main question is, if the cross does take and the pod makes seeds – will each seed within the pod potentially be different? Or are all seeds within the crossed pods in theory the same?
 
Im pretty much wondering what I can expect?
Cheers  
 
I hope you removed the anthers and not the stamens. Partial fertile means some or all of the seeds won't be fertile in a pod. A pepper plant as a whole is genetically the same, so you have two plants (genetically different from each other but genetically the same as themselves) crossing unless you're using more than two plants for your crosses. The flower where the cross was made, that will become the fruit containing F1 seeds, shouldn't matter unless there is variation in size or shape causing infertility with pollen, pollen tubes, or something else I'm unaware of during or after fertilization.  In the F1 generation the dominate genes get expressed (to be simple). It's possible the F2s could also have fertility issues (they might inherit whatever is causing the partial fertility). I don't know what the cause is for chinese x annuum's partial fertility, so it's hard to say. The genes in the F1 pods all organize the same way, so you should expect the seeds to grow virtually the same traits. You potentially see recessive genes in the F2s. It's "random" in the F2 generation. You will want to collect and grow as many F2s as you can to make your selection. As generations go further down the line they homogenize more and more. It will probably take 8 generations to be homogeneous enough to be considered stable.
 
All that aside, I highly recommend doing as many crosses as you can between the two species. The more you do the more seeds you will have that are potentially fertile.
 
What he (Dulac) said.
 
Just a further note on Q2: Although the plant is one genetic entity and therefore it's gametes are too they carry loads of info - some dominant some recessive.  The recombination of genes through the processes of meiosis allows for expression of states different to that of the parents. 
 
As an example let's say that there are two genes (correctly though they are alleles but for ease of use we'll stick with genes) that control plant height: T for tall and t for short.  Because meiosis occurs in both the pollen and the ova one half of the pollen/ova will contain T and the other half t.  There will be an approximately equal number of both sperm and ova carrying either T or t.  The possible combinations can be reduced down to one chance of TT, one chance of tt and two chances of Tt.  This has been empirically proven to be the ratios.  So therefore one can expect a quarter of the plants to be tall dominant (TT) and therefore very tall, short dominant (tt) and therefore very short and half to be somewhat intermediate between the two (Tt) - the normal state for that plant.
 
Obviously if one knows what a plant is carrying it can be easier to create hybrids with some degree of expectation regarding expression of characters.  Using a matrix with the charcteristics of each plant - if one has yellow fruit and one has red fruit you can assign hypothetical codes to them (as above) and arrive at the most likely expression of the character states.
 
Good luck!
 
ok so after re-reading all of this, am i correct in thinking the F1 generation should be similar to the mother plant - and its not untill the F2 generation that differences may start to appear? 
 
so i probably wont see anything different with the F1 generation?
cheers 
 
nzchili said:
ok so after re-reading all of this, am i correct in thinking the F1 generation should be similar to the mother plant - and its not untill the F2 generation that differences may start to appear? 
 
so i probably wont see anything different with the F1 generation?
cheers 
 
No. The F1 plant will show the combined dominant genes from the parents. and therefore all the F1 plants should be alike (if the parents are stable varieties), but unlike any of the parents, since some of genes of one parent will be recessive to the genes of the other parent and vice versa. That is also why F1 seeds/plants can be sold as special "varieties".
 
HAJ said:
 
No. The F1 plant will show the combined dominant genes from the parents. and therefore all the F1 plants should be alike (if the parents are stable varieties), but unlike any of the parents, since some of genes of one parent will be recessive to the genes of the other parent and vice versa. That is also why F1 seeds/plants can be sold as special "varieties".
 
Sweet, sounds good! im looking forward to growing my own "something different" 
Hopefully the crossed flowers take, I should know in the next couple of days id assume.
I will cross a few more over the next few days also to increase my chances of getting a decent amount of seeds. 
 
nzchili said:
ok so after re-reading all of this, am i correct in thinking the F1 generation should be similar to the mother plant - and its not untill the F2 generation that differences may start to appear? 
 
so i probably wont see anything different with the F1 generation?
cheers 
 
No.  There'll be some similar to the pollen parent and some similar to the seed parent and a whole bunch that are their own entity.  An example:  I hybridised two Cyrtanthus spp. (Amaryllidaceae).  One species, C. mackenii, is about 25-30cm tall and has bright yellow tubular flowers approx. 4-5cm long with paler median stripes on the flared tepals.  The other, C. obrienii, is about 45cm tall and has bright red tubular flowers approx. 6cm long with uniformly coloured flared tepals.  The result:  some (about a quarter) were shortish with bright yellow flowers that had  pinkish flared tepals and the base of the tube was pinkinsh orange; a further approx. quarter were tall and had peachy coloured flowers with paler flared tepals and the rest were of intermediate height with deep yellow tubes with a pronounced red-orange base grading into the yellow and an orangey tinge to the flared tepals.  The F2 generation of these has produced progeny of various heights with flower colour ranging from pink and white to salmon through to very soft peach-orange.
 
HAJ said:
 
No. The F1 plant will show the combined dominant genes from the parents. and therefore all the F1 plants should be alike (if the parents are stable varieties), but unlike any of the parents, since some of genes of one parent will be recessive to the genes of the other parent and vice versa. That is also why F1 seeds/plants can be sold as special "varieties".
 
Only in line-bred F1 can you be certain of that.  Here's what i posted in another topic ("F1's sold by vendors that don't make sense"):
 
"A genuine F1 has it's place - it is the product of line breeding each of the parents to fix the traits - then outcrossing those two to arrive at a predetermined outcome.  Sounds easy but requires a heck of a lot of knowledge of the transfer of information - what will be dominant what will be recessive.  It takes years to accomplish.  The progeny should all be uniform.  Needless to say that is why proper F1 is sold as seed - for commercial growers.  They might grow them as a commercial crop knowing exactly what the outcome is (days to fruit, ripening time etc etc etc) or they might sell the plants (in the case of flowering plants for nurseries).  F1 seed is usually expensive because of the time (crosses - grow out, evaluate, fail - try new parents etc) that it takes to get it right."
 
In an F1 hybrid of heterozygous parents you will end up with progeny of all sorts.  Only homozygous parents will give a predetermined outcome - which is the F1 seed of commercial plant breeders.
 
So by crossing two spp. you will end up with a mish-mash of progeny.  The real job now is to select those which fulfill your needs and line breed those to fix traits and eventually stabilise them.  However as a breeder once said: a hybrid is a waste of two good species.  He also said:  a plant breeder needs to have a cold heart and a hot furnace!
 
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