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fermenting Fermenting Peppers - 10% Salt, too much?

I've done a number of batches of fermented peppers and I've read you can use as much as 10% salt by weight.  Each time I have tried this my peppers have turned into a salt lick by the time I used them. Is this typical of what you guys experience?
 
If any of  you ferment peppers with 10% salt, what type of recipe are you using to dilute all that salt when making a sauce?
 
When I first started, I tried a few recipes that I found elsewhere on the internet and had the same experience. Personally, I make brine by dissolving 1-1/2 Tablespoons pickling salt per quart of distilled water.
 
I used 4 % on my last batch. Seems fine for peppers that make a hot sauce but still way too salty for sauerkraut that I made at the same time with the same salt content. Probably try 2% on the next cabbage ferment.
 
RocketMan said:
10% is pretty high for the brine but if it works good. As for the sauce being too salty, peel a large potato and put it in the pot while your simmering the mash. Potatoes are salt magnets and it will soak up a ton of the stuff, then just pitch the tater in the trash when you blender it.
So, how do you figure your own salt amounts?
 
As you gain more experience fermenting peppers you can use less salt after several successful attempts.  I have no idea how much salt I use by weight but about one cup of salt per gallon of Cuisinart peppers seems about right for my use.  I them add enough other fresh fruits and veggies to balance out the salt content in my cooked sauce.  Several years ago I was the only one fermenting peppers and now with all the help from great teachers like chili monsta and rocketman it seems everybody is fermenting their hot sauces.  I really don't like a hot sauce unless it is salty fermented peppers as the base it is the only way.  Have several gallons of pepper mash sauce cooking down slowly on the stove right now.
 
RocketMan said:
10% is pretty high for the brine but if it works good. As for the sauce being too salty, peel a large potato and put it in the pot while your simmering the mash. Potatoes are salt magnets and it will soak up a ton of the stuff, then just pitch the tater in the trash when you blender it.
How long do you simmer? I've been doing mine right over 200 deg F for 10 mins then inverting 5oz bottles for 5 mins.
I'm using 52 grams per quart. My salt is 14g/tbsp (I figured this out by dividing grams by ounces listed on the salt container). Google has great converters that are quick to get at. 
 
397g (container) salt
14 oz (container) salt
=28.36g/oz
 
Since 1tbsp is 0.5oz, I conclude that 14.18g=1tbsp 
3tbsp of salt per quart will get me (if my math is right) 4-5% brine.
 
Mines pretty salty. Too salty. I can't imagine what 10% would taste like...I'm guessing salty? Like sunflower seeds salty. I'm gonna try the potato thing...
 
Roguejim said:
So, how do you figure your own salt amounts?
 
Since I have High Blood pressure I use a really low amount of salt. I usually only go with about 5 tablespoons per gallon of mash. I also use a starter, usually Whey from yogurt, so that the low amount of salt in the mash isn't a problem.
 
 
FarmerJones said:
How long do you simmer? I've been doing mine right over 200 deg F for 10 mins then inverting 5oz bottles for 5 mins.

I'm using 52 grams per quart. My salt is 14g/tbsp (I figured this out by dividing grams by ounces listed on the salt container). Google has great converters that are quick to get at. 
 
397g (container) salt
14 oz (container) salt
=28.36g/oz
 
Since 1tbsp is 0.5oz, I conclude that 14.18g=1tbsp 
3tbsp of salt per quart will get me (if my math is right) 4-5% brine.
 
Mines pretty salty. Too salty. I can't imagine what 10% would taste like...I'm guessing salty? Like sunflower seeds salty. I'm gonna try the potato thing...
 
 If you read the Fermenting 101; http://thehotpepper.com/topic/23146-fermenting-peppers-101/#entry476940
you'll see how I process my sauces. Basically here's how I do it:
 
Bring the mash to a boil for 10 minutes and then reduce it to a simmer for 45 minutes.
Run it through a blender in batches and then back into the pot for a second simmer. 
Bring it back to a boil for 10 minutes and then simmer for 45 minutes again.
Run it through the blender a second time and then through a fine wire strainer to remove seed , skin and unwanted parts for the suce.
Bring the sauce back to a boil the reduce to 195 Degrees F for 15 minutes and bottle.
 
and that's it.
 
Pepper Ridge Farm said:
As you gain more experience fermenting peppers you can use less salt after several successful attempts.  I have no idea how much salt I use by weight but about one cup of salt per gallon of Cuisinart peppers seems about right for my use.  I them add enough other fresh fruits and veggies to balance out the salt content in my cooked sauce.  Several years ago I was the only one fermenting peppers and now with all the help from great teachers like chili monsta and rocketman it seems everybody is fermenting their hot sauces.  I really don't like a hot sauce unless it is salty fermented peppers as the base it is the only way.  Have several gallons of pepper mash sauce cooking down slowly on the stove right now.
You do do you. Lemme know when it's ready heehee.
 
RocketMan said:
Since I have High Blood pressure I use a really low amount of salt. I usually only go with about 5 tablespoons per gallon of mash. I also use a starter, usually Whey from yogurt, so that the low amount of salt in the mash isn't a problem.
 
 

 
 If you read the Fermenting 101; http://thehotpepper.com/topic/23146-fermenting-peppers-101/#entry476940
you'll see how I process my sauces. Basically here's how I do it:
 
Bring the mash to a boil for 10 minutes and then reduce it to a simmer for 45 minutes.
Run it through a blender in batches and then back into the pot for a second simmer. 
Bring it back to a boil for 10 minutes and then simmer for 45 minutes again.
Run it through the blender a second time and then through a fine wire strainer to remove seed , skin and unwanted parts for the suce.
Bring the sauce back to a boil the reduce to 195 Degrees F for 15 minutes and bottle.
 
and that's it.
Thanks, Rocketman. Last question here from me. Besides flavor, what is the reason for salt in the mash? Some people seem to be hung up on 3.6% salt by weight. Does the mash require salt?
 
Roguejim said:
Thanks, Rocketman. Last question here from me. Besides flavor, what is the reason for salt in the mash? Some people seem to be hung up on 3.6% salt by weight. Does the mash require salt?
 
The purpose of the salt is to prevent the nasty bacteria from taking hold before the good (LAB) can take charge of the mash and yes it is required, especially if the mash is running without a starter. personally i wouldn't have a mash with out a degree of salt but i also wouldn't start a ferment without a starter.
 
I also use 3.6%.  I dont base it on pepper weight, rather I make the brine solution to 3.6%, ie. 36g in 1L water.  I add the peppers (finely chopped in a food processor to increase surface area and help speed fermentation) into a mason jar approx 2/3 full.  I then add the brine up to approx the 3/4 point.  The high salt content of the brine compared to the peppers creates a hypertonic solution which will then cause juices to flow out of the peppers.  This will further dilute out the brine solution and lower the overall % of the salt content.  So you end up with a lower salt % in the fluid portion then what you started with.  As far as how much is too much...it all depends on the microbiota.  Different bacteria can tolerate differing amounts of salt.  For many bacteria, 2% is inhibitory.  Lactobacillus tolerates higher amounts well, but it will have a limit to how much it can grow in.  10% is pretty high, it may grow, but probably not as well as with a lower %.
 
Keep in mind that the brine solution is only one of the inhibitory factors in a ferment.  The CO2 produced by the lactobacillus creates an anaerobic environment where obligate aerobes cannot survive....this leaves you with only anaerobes and microaerobic organisms.  Also, the lactobacillus  produces lactic acid, lowering the pH.  Again most microorganisms have an ideal pH that they thrive in.  Lacto likes it acidic (hence its ability to do well in our GI tract) where others do not.
 
Some organisms may be stunted by the salt content, or low O2, or low pH, but still survive.  When you have all these factors present in a proper ferment, it greatly reduces the variety that can grow.  So basically what Im saying is, dont stress to heavily on the salt content to keep the nasties out, other factors will help you with that.
 
@Rocketman
 
All that simmering & pasteurizing doesn't completely change your flavors? I imagine that produces a much thicker sauce. Seems like the flavor of the ferment might get lost in that. 
 
FarmerJones said:
@Rocketman
 
All that simmering & pasteurizing doesn't completely change your flavors? I imagine that produces a much thicker sauce. Seems like the flavor of the ferment might get lost in that. 
 
You say that like it is a bad thing. A raw fermented flavor can be a bit harsh. Ever had kimchi? It is an acquired taste that  many people hate. Sometimes cooking it down helps blend and mellow the sauce. It is all about what flavor profile you are going for.
 
RocketMan said:
10% is pretty high for the brine but if it works good. As for the sauce being too salty, peel a large potato and put it in the pot while your simmering the mash. Potatoes are salt magnets and it will soak up a ton of the stuff, then just pitch the tater in the trash when you blender it.
^ This. 
 

 
Jobu said:
I have been using the 3.6% ratio from the fermenting pepper thread.  I use metric to keep it easy. For the batch I just did, it took 500ml of water to cover the mash. 500 * .036 (salt %) = 18 grams of salt, no matter if you are using pickling salt (which is very fine) vs. coarse salts like Kosher salt and Sea salt.
Pickling salt is also preferable because there are no anti-caking agents added, but I'm sure you already knew that. Oh, and points for using mass rather than volume AND using the metric system. 

 
 
RocketMan said:
 
The purpose of the salt is to prevent the nasty bacteria from taking hold before the good (LAB) can take charge of the mash and yes it is required, especially if the mash is running without a starter. personally i wouldn't have a mash with out a degree of salt but i also wouldn't start a ferment without a starter.
Agreed. I think, for the purposes of a person new to fermenting, it's most important to understand the interplay of the different factors. Properly sanitizing everything, having the right amount of headspace, fermenting in a vessel with a lid that actually seals, and working out how to vent CO2 without letting air in are all highly important. I see salt and starter as sort of a seesaw scenario (points to me for alliteration): one slows growth of undesirable microbes, and the other speeds growth of desirable microbes. When you get to the point that you have a handle on the other factors, you can play around with decreasing the salt and even the starter because it simply isn't as necessary. The next step for me will be playing with temperature. In my experience baking breads (and I know you're no stranger to that either, RM), cooler temperatures and cooler temperaments win the day. If patience and a fridge make for the best bread, I can't help wondering if a really long, slow ferment at maybe 70-74 degrees would be good. I welcome any thoughts from you or the community on this one.
 
Oh, and one last thought: when I see you at the festival tomorrow, I just want you to know that Wicked Mike's LemonBomb started as halved Aji Lemon Drop pods and celery chopped coarsely and fermented in a sanitized Simply Lemonade bottle, months ago. There's a lot more that went into it in the cooking process, but I just want to say again that you and CM and your Fermenting 101 thread were my first introduction to THP, and I thank you for it.
Heisenberg said:
I also use 3.6%.  I dont base it on pepper weight, rather I make the brine solution to 3.6%, ie. 36g in 1L water.  I add the peppers (finely chopped in a food processor to increase surface area and help speed fermentation) into a mason jar approx 2/3 full.  I then add the brine up to approx the 3/4 point.  The high salt content of the brine compared to the peppers creates a hypertonic solution which will then cause juices to flow out of the peppers.  This will further dilute out the brine solution and lower the overall % of the salt content.  So you end up with a lower salt % in the fluid portion then what you started with.  As far as how much is too much...it all depends on the microbiota.  Different bacteria can tolerate differing amounts of salt.  For many bacteria, 2% is inhibitory.  Lactobacillus tolerates higher amounts well, but it will have a limit to how much it can grow in.  10% is pretty high, it may grow, but probably not as well as with a lower %.
 
Keep in mind that the brine solution is only one of the inhibitory factors in a ferment.  The CO2 produced by the lactobacillus creates an anaerobic environment where obligate aerobes cannot survive....this leaves you with only anaerobes and microaerobic organisms.  Also, the lactobacillus  produces lactic acid, lowering the pH.  Again most microorganisms have an ideal pH that they thrive in.  Lacto likes it acidic (hence its ability to do well in our GI tract) where others do not.
 
Some organisms may be stunted by the salt content, or low O2, or low pH, but still survive.  When you have all these factors present in a proper ferment, it greatly reduces the variety that can grow.  So basically what Im saying is, dont stress to heavily on the salt content to keep the nasties out, other factors will help you with that.
We should cook sometime. I'll bring the Chilly P.
 
Thanks Wicked Mike, glad we could act as  your compass to get here :) and the LemonBomb sounds like TheBomb  :rofl:
 
 
ColdSmoke said:
what's the difference between fermenting and pickling? Does either affect the heat of the pepper?
 
Pickling is basically backing a bunch of Veggie of choice into a jar and adding a hot vinegar solution and letting it sit for a while till the vinegar works its way into them thus pickling them.
 
Fermenting is one of the oldest ways of preserving foods we know. it involved using Lactic Acid Producing Bacteria (LAB) to ferment the veggies of choice. The LAB consume the sugars in the mash and then poop lactic acid and fart CO2 which give you a food that is preserved and protected two ways rather than by just 1. You also have a food that still retains the flavors of the ingredients as the lactic acid doesn't overpower the taste like vinegar does.
 
Neither process will affect the heat. Well, if you use a lot of sugar in the pickling solution you might knock it down just a tad bit but still not much. Really the only way to affect heat is to remove the placenta from the peppers when preparing them to go into the jar.
 
Cheers,
RM 
 
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