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Relationship between scoville and light

I understand chillies are hotter when grown near the equator that when grown in the UK (Northern hemisphere) if the chilli plants were both clones. If all other variables remain the same. What I want to know is is it just intensity of the light or UV or a combination of both (This is what I would suspect) I grow under HPS/MH lamps so I have the intesity needed I'm sure but there's almost no UV in HPS and very little in MH would it be worth adding some uv.
 
I can source 285nm, 305nm and 315nm led's if needed or drop a couple of reptile lamps in there.
 
At least anectdotally, peppers run under straight HPS have much lower capsaicin content, much like THC and cannabis.
 
All MH are not created equal in regards UV light. GE MH/CMH, Phillips flashy Agro CMH, and I'm assuming Hortilux's new conversion/CMH line are higher than average. It is difficult finding solid information, most spectral analysis charts end at 400nm, and at least in the case of Hortilux, they're unresponsive to inquiry.
 
My 2 cents: LED UV panels are expensive for a small footprint, reptile bulbs are cheap, but output, at least with the CFL style, is poor, and LEP are so hilariously expensive I wouldn't take it seriously for cannabis, let alone peppers. Tracking down a MH or CMH/conversion with decent UV output seems like the easiest route, and one I am working on myself.
 
A long rambling thread on UV lighting.
 
Vertically Challenged said:
I understand chillies are hotter when grown near the equator that when grown in the UK (Northern hemisphere) if the chilli plants were both clones. If all other variables remain the same.
 
Sources?
 
A very interesting question but I think, for me, if it's a superhot >1M SHU, it really shouldn't matter if you lose a couple thousand SHU. You still gonna feel the burn. Having said that, good luck with finding the answer. ;)
 
It might be a fun test to go cheap and make a Low budget led solution for one plant and compare the results.

However in my opinion, the thing about UK based and equator based plants is that there will indeed be A difference but I don't think it's the Light.

Why?

1. UK plants grow up in a protected enviroment.
2. Equator plants grow up outside, sucking up EVERYTHING that mother nature has to throw at them.

Everyone knows that stressed chillis be come hotter. UK plants are much better cared for, while the outdoor plants burn, get nasty critters and dry up once in a while.
 
I don't think there's a lot of different between sunlight and good quality artificial lighting. Offcourse you have factors like UV that are harder to get in artificial lighting, but as you can get incredibally hot peppers from greenhouses (also shielded from a lot of UV) I don't really think UV is the key. If UV would be the key I'd assume you'd get super mild trinidad moruga Scorpions and snack Carolina reapers if they are grown in Northern Europe.
 
I'd recommend stressing your plants if you want the hottest peppers. Capsaicin is a natural deterrent to make sure mammals don't eat the fruits, but just birds (that don't kill the seeds but distribute it all over the rainforrest). If the plant thinks it's dying it will try to improve it's reproductive odds by better protecting it's seed (= capsaicin increase). Dry them out, prune them, pick some unripe fruits once in a while.. basically scare the shit out of the plants prehistoric instincts.
 
Pfeffer said:
Everyone knows that stressed chillis be come hotter. UK plants are much better cared for, while the outdoor plants burn, get nasty critters and dry up once in a while.
 
Sources?
 
I've read that now and then too but many people consider it more of an urban myth than fact.  There have even been studies where peppers were shown to increase capsaicin in response to higher humidity, wetter climates.
 
I will speculate that the factor that dominates everything else is # of pods growing, that the chemical compounds needed for capsaicin production will be higher concentration the fewer pods that are growing, while most other factors will change rate of plant growth more than anything else.
 
Granted since many of the hotter peppers tend to fork, and fork again, with each additional amount of growth leading to twice the nodes and then buds, there may be a higher ratio of peppers to the rest of the plant.  However, many of us are not looking for very few, slightly hotter peppers instead of multiple times as many "hot enough" peppers. 
 
I think we do have enough evidence to conclude that a huge healthy plant produces the most capsaicin in total by far over a season then what remains is distribution to how many pods it produces, that if you keep the other variables a constant, there's no way a small plant producing one pod could have it 100 times as hot as a large plant producing 100 pods. 
 
This may be an extreme example but from testing I've seen hotness level doesn't usually vary by more than 300% if even that... a far cry from the difference in pod production from a small stressed plant and a large healthy one.

Pfeffer said:
 
I'd recommend stressing your plants if you want the hottest peppers. Capsaicin is a natural deterrent to make sure mammals don't eat the fruits, but just birds (that don't kill the seeds but distribute it all over the rainforrest). If the plant thinks it's dying it will try to improve it's reproductive odds by better protecting it's seed (= capsaicin increase). Dry them out, prune them, pick some unripe fruits once in a while.. basically scare the shit out of the plants prehistoric instincts.
 
I'd recommend less speculation and more sources.  While it may seem logical to assume capsaicin is a response to mammals not eating peppers on the surface, this really doesn't hold valid.
 
1)  Other plants survive fine without this evolutionary change.  Hot peppers are a minority plant, not a majority.
 
2)  Many mammals will also pass seed through their digestive tract so it would increase chance of survival for peppers to not be offensive to mammals.  It would be another method of spreading to new areas and actually mammals do eat hot peppers in a high stress environment where there is limited to no other food. 
 
There are plenty of birds around here both large and small and they do not flock to my peppers, instead greatly preferring high sugar and water berries on other plants.  They will fly miles to a berry bush but leave thousands of my pepper pods sitting there untouched as they hop around the plants looking for worms, berries, and other seeds.
 
3)  You wrote "think".  Plants don't think.  They don't react, merely responding the best their genetics allow with the best adaptations having higher seed production - which has no direct relation to capsaicin.  On the contrary as I speculated above it could be that peppers with lower capsaicin due to increased # of pods, have higher seed rate, are less offensive to mammals, and have the higher survival rate. 
 
Another reason this would be fair to speculate is that in nature, the majority of plants on earth don't have much if any capsaicin level, including those in the areas hot peppers have greatest numbers in the wild.
 
4)  The rest of the suggestions are not reasonable to consider without a lot of scientifically valid testing including a large sample size and years of research.  In nature stress generally does not increase survival rate at all.  It thins the herd.  We could say the strongest survive but there is no evidence that strongest = highest capsaicin level per pod.
 
One source is the New Mexico State University;
 
http://www.chilepepperinstitute.org/content/files/impact_of_drought_stress.pdf
 
There are some more articles on stress and the influence on capsinoids byt the team of Paul Bosland. These are easily googled.  I also support your theory about the "raw materials" vs the number of pods. If you have less pods, your plant can more effectively use the nutes, but I wouldn't be suprised if it did exactly the opposite (more nutes available per pod = faster growth, less capsaicin). This should be quite easy to test, especially with milder varieties. I do know that my stressed jalapeno earlies pack a LOT more heat then my perfectly cared for ones. They should have around 3000-8000 SHU normally. I use them to make atomic Buffalo turds on the grill and I can eat those normally. However, when I tried them from the stressed out plants I couldn't eat them (way above my comfort zone). They were harvested at the same time.
 
The stressed plants were overwatered due to heavy rain, dried out in the hot periods and had their roots fried (black plastic pots in the sun), nutes were washed out by rain etc. They were also pruned as they had a lot of burned leafs and had aphids. The cared for ones were under a shelter, regularly nuted and were aphid free.
 
Pfeffer said:
 
Is that useful?  I don't have time to read much right now but even on the first page I already see, quote:
 
"Yield performances of the high pungency group did not decrease under drought stress,
whereas those of the low pungency group did decrease. In conclusion, capsaicinoid levels
increased for all cultivars studied when subjected to drought stress, except for the cultivars
in the high pungency group.
"
 
Isn't that suggesting that only the peppers that aren't as hot increase?  That would lead to the idea that if you want hotter peppers you pick a strain that is hotter, not one that isn't then wish you had picked something else and do crazy amounts of excessive work towards lowering your yield for a few hotter pods instead of accepting the mistake?
 


They should have around 3000-8000 SHU normally.
 
There's no way I'd put a moment into trying to make a 3K-8K SHU pepper a little hotter.  If and when I grow one of those it's because it's a type not as hot.  On the contrary I'd rather increase pod production on that heat range because being far milder, a greater # of pods work their way into meals.
 
The effect is a lot less noticeable if you already have very large level of capsaicin. (i.e. this is not to make a 1.000.000 scoville superhot a 2.000.000 one, it's more like getting a 1.000.000 to a 1.050.000-1.100.000 one). Don't see it as a magical way to grow superhot prize winning record setting chillis. I think that if you have a superhot strain you can affect the capsaicin levels by tweaking everything.
 
To grow a good plant you need the right nutes, root ball and enviroment. I think things as light hours and stress will affect general heat, but I don't think that sunlight vs artificial light (as originally posted) makes "the" difference.
 
Dave2000 said:
 
Is that useful?  I don't have time to read much right now but even on the first page I already see, quote:
 
"Yield performances of the high pungency group did not decrease under drought stress,
whereas those of the low pungency group did decrease. In conclusion, capsaicinoid levels
increased for all cultivars studied when subjected to drought stress, except for the cultivars
in the high pungency group.
"
 
Isn't that suggesting that only the peppers that aren't as hot increase?  That would lead to the idea that if you want hotter peppers you pick a strain that is hotter, not one that isn't then wish you had picked something else and do crazy amounts of excessive work towards lowering your yield for a few hotter pods instead of accepting the mistake?
 
 
 
 
There's no way I'd put a moment into trying to make a 3K-8K SHU pepper a little hotter.  If and when I grow one of those it's because it's a type not as hot.  On the contrary I'd rather increase pod production on that heat range because being far milder, a greater # of pods work their way into meals.
 
You ask for sources, never provide your own, and then say you don't have time to read them? :crazy: And how does watering your plants less equate to "crazy amounts of excessive work"? Another contradiction....
 
I'ma wander around for a bit and come back with a few cites. I'll include cliff notes to avoid you the hassle of actually reading....
 
Effects of salt stress on capsaicin content, growth, and fluorescence in a Jalapeño cultivar of Capsicum annuum (Solanaceae)
 
Plants at the two highest salinities had higher levels of capsaicin compared to the control and lowest salinity group.
 
At the highest salinity level plants doubled their fruit production and allocated more of their photosynthate towards sexual reproduction as opposed to vegetative growth.
 
Comparative Study of Color, Pungency, and Biochemical Composition in Chili Pepper (Capsicum annuum) Under Different Light-emitting Diode Treatments
 
High-performance liquid chromatography analysis of acetonitrile extract of chili fruits revealed enhanced capsaicinoid contents in blue LEDs (180 ± 6.32 mg/100 g) when compared with fluorescent light (54 ± 3.12 mg/100 g).
 
These results showed that there were significant differences of plant growth and production of various metabolites among the different LEDs. Furthermore, blue LED showed a relatively higher rate of capsaicinoid production and red plus blue LED produced striking color development in chili peppers. (My note: GOD GOOD! Different light produces different results! THAT'S BLASPHEMY ON THP! :rofl: )
 
Water Deficit Affects the Accumulation of Capsaicinoids in Fruits of Capsicum chinense
 
Timing water stress is important, it may lead to lower flower growth/set. Although little correlation was observed in this study, the researchers site others that have shown these results from more rigourous experiments.
 
An analysis of fruit number per plant also found no differences between the treatments and the control Table 2). Therefore, our results showed that under water stress conditions, production of flowers and fruits of Habanero pepper plants was unaffected significantly. Jaimez et al. (2000) evaluated the effect of water deficit on flowering dynamics and fruit production in C. chinense Jacq. from a Venezuela semitropical region; they observed a reduction in the number of flowers and a delay in occurrence of maximum flowering in response to water stress.
 
Water deficit stress increased capsaicin and dihydrocapsaicin concentrations in Habanero pepper fruits. Pungency of the fruit of the genus Capsicum is a characteristic that results from the interaction between the phenotype and the environment (Contreras-Padilla and Yahia, 1998; Estrada et al., 1997; Johnson and Decoteau, 1996; Sung et al., 2005). Jurenitsch et al. (1979) reported differences in total capsaicinoids among plants grown in greenhouses, in laboratory conditions, and in normal planting conditions, highlighting the effect of environmental conditions on the capsaicin content. Another important characteristic that influences capsaicinoids content is fruit age, because these compounds are accumulated in different ways throughout the plant’s development.
 
The concentration of a compound in the cell depends on the relationship between synthesis and degradation. The data on capsaicin concentration in placentas of the 25 DAA fruit (Fig. 3) suggest that synthesis and degradation processes were similar in both T1 and T2 treatments and the control. However, we obtained an increase in capsaicin synthase activity in T2 plants compared with the control (Fig. 4), which cannot be explained by the concentration of capsaicin in the placenta during synthesis. The capsaicin concentration in placentas of 45 DAA fruit indicates a capsaicin accumulation in response to water deficit stress (Fig. 3). This characteristic suggests that the process of synthesis exceeds degradation. However, capsaicin synthase activity was significantly reduced in the placentas of fruits of this age in plants subjected to water stress (Fig.4). Therefore, the capsaicin accumulation in stressed fruit can be explained only through a reduction in its degradation.
 
(Notes: DAA - Day after anthesis [full flower set]. This particular quote is of note, suggesting that capsaicin production is not increased, but that degradation (through enzyme peroxidase) is reduced.)
 
Sung et al. (2005) found that peroxidase
activity is lower in fruits of
C. annuum
L.
var. annuum (Beauty Zest) exposed to a water
Sung et al. (2005) found that peroxidase activity is lower in fruits of C. annuum L. var. annuum (Beauty Zest) exposed to a water deficit 50 DAA.
 
Sung et al. (2005) reported that water stress effect on capsaicin synthase activity from C. annuum L. var. annuum depended on age of the fruit.
 
Capsaicin biosynthesis in water-stressed hot pepper fruits
 
"Hungariana," "Beauty Zest," and "Home Flavor" hot pepper plants (Capsicum annuum L. var. annuum) were grown with an ample or a limited water supply. The fruits of plants in the water deficit treatment were small, had a proportionally heavier placenta and had a higher concentration of capsaicin. The concentration of capsaicin in the placenta of "Beauty Zest" fruits in the water deficit treatment began to increase rapidly 10 days after flowering (DAF). It reached a maximum 30 days DAF and was 3.84-fold higher than in the placenta of control treatment plants. In the pericarp, the concentration of capsaicin reached a maximum 50 days DAF and was 4.52-fold higher than in the control treatment. In "Hungariana" fruits, the concentration of capsaicin in the placenta was not significantly different among treatments. Phenylalanine ammonia-lyase (PAL) activity was higher in the placenta of "Beauty Zest" fruits in the water deficit treatment than in the fruits of control plants 50 DAF. In 40 or 50 DAF, cinnamic acid-4-hydroxylase (C4H) activity was higher in plants subjected to the water deficit treatment than in control plants. In both treatments, C4H activity in placenta was 1.4 to 1.5-fold greater than in the pericarp 40 DAF. Capsaicinoid synthetase (CS) activity 40 DAF was 1.45 to 1.58-fold higher in fruits in the water deficit treatment than in fruits in the control treatment. Although peroxidase activity was lower in plants in the water deficit treatment than in the control treatment, the difference was not significant.
 
Enzymatic changes in phenylalanine ammonia-lyase, cinnamic-4-hydroxylase, capsaicin synthase, and peroxidase activities in capsicum under drought stress.
 
Penylalanine ammonia-lyase (PAL), cinnamic-4-hydroxylase (C4H), capsaicin synthase (CS), and peroxidase (POD) are involved in the capsaicinoid biosynthesis pathway and may be altered in cultivars with different pungency levels. This study clarified the action of these enzymes under drought stress for hot Capsicum cultivars with low, medium,and high pungency levels. At the flowering stage, control plants were watered at field capacity, whereas drought-induced plants were subjected to gradual drought stress. Under drought stress, PAL, C4H, CS, and POD enzyme activities increased as compared to the non-drought-stressed plants. A novel discovery was that PAL was the critical enzyme in capsaicinoid biosynthesis under drought stress because its activities and capsaicinoid increased across the different pungency levels of hot pepper cultivars examined.
 
(Increases noted in capsaicin precursors and enzymes. I can not track down full access to determine specific increase in POD.)
 
Here is a link to a terrible "study", the likes of which you find from home gardeners, a mish mash of subjective and objective results. They do however correctly note that environment and genetics play the greatest role, while at the same time harvesting unripe peppers.
 
 
Hardly seems like urban legend or wives tale....
 
From those bumbling jokers (sarcasm) over at the NMSU
 
The heat level in chile peppers is the result of two factors: the plant's genetics and the interaction of the plant with the environment. The genetic control of heat allows plant breeders to produce a chile pepper plant with a certain relative heat level. For example, the cultivar 'NuMex Joe E. Parker' was genetically selected to produce fruit of "medium" heat. However, environmental factors such as temperature and water influence the heat level. A mild chile pepper cultivar bred for low levels of heat will become hotter when exposed to any type of stress in the field. Conversely, a relatively hot cultivar given optimal environmental conditions will become only moderately hot. A chile pepper plant that genetically produces low-heat fruit will not produce hot chile peppers even when grown in a stressed environment. To produce chile peppers of a predictable heat, both cultivar selection and optimum stress-free growing conditions are important.
 
     I don't buy the premise that a plant with a lot of pods needs to somehow "distribute" a finite quantity of capsaicin among its pods. Each pod has the cellular machinery (placenta) to produce its own oil. 
 
miguelovic said:
 
You ask for sources, never provide your own, and then say you don't have time to read them? :crazy: And how does watering your plants less equate to "crazy amounts of excessive work"? Another contradiction....
 
I'ma wander around for a bit and come back with a few cites.
 
^  Watering less wasn't the only situation discussed.  Yes it is crazy amounts of work to grow stressed peppers that produce a few pods instead of a little less work for more peppers.  It's always about work to yield ratio... at least to me, if someone else only cares about winning a hottest pepper record then that's their own choice to make.
 
I wasn't the one who started the topic throwing out speculation, so fair being fair I can counter with more speculation, BUT, these are things I have observed over years of growing rather than only reading something and dwelling on that instead of also considering contradictory information.
 
Regardless I do have a schedule to keep today and am now late so yes, I had time to post and now don't.
dash 2 said:
     I don't buy the premise that a plant with a lot of pods needs to somehow "distribute" a finite quantity of capsaicin among its pods. Each pod has the cellular machinery (placenta) to produce its own oil. 
 
Machinery perhaps, but a capsaicin factory still needs the raw materials which are limited by root, stem and soil.  Futher more stress, as in reduced watering, reduces root uptake... Now I really have to go.
 
Dave2000 said:
 
^  Watering less wasn't the only situation discussed.  Yes it is crazy amounts of work to grow stressed peppers that produce a few pods instead of a little less work for more peppers.  It's always about work to yield ratio... at least to me, if someone else only cares about winning a hottest pepper record then that's their own choice to make.
 
I wasn't the one who started the topic throwing out speculation, so fair being fair I can counter with more speculation, BUT, these are things I have observed over years of growing rather than only reading something and dwelling on that instead of also considering contradictory information.
 
Tit for tat and the world goes blind...
 
Salt and water stress are the main factors I can find to increase capsaicin, neither of which requires much work, much less crazy amounts of it. UV stress is the only other mention I see here, regardless, you were replying to a particular study posted.
 
Dave2000 said:
BUT, these are things I have observed over years of growing rather than only reading something and dwelling on that instead of also considering contradictory information.
 
 
I don't think this is reasonable to consider without a lot of scientifically valid testing including a large sample size and years of research. If you're going to be insulting, I could care less what most backyard gardeners think.
 
If it's viable (IE cheap) I'm willing to donate 5-10 carolina reaper pods for scolville testing from the babies I'm germinating now from puckerbutt seeds when they're ready.
 
Grown under lights only they'll never see daylight, it'll be documented on here. They will be pampered better than Paris Hilton :)
 
I would be interested to see as I'm sure other would.
 
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