RobStar said:
I understand that this is not your forte and you want to learn, but if one is going to throw this type of thing out there it is best done with a modicum of understanding so as to be able to deal with the ensuing outfall..
Wow that was a bit harsh. I have simply asked a question, solicited opinion. I did so by saying very clearly: "Please note, not ragging on either Jay or Ed."
You are right in one thing, I did not know Jay's peppers were a cross. Sometimes people are in error. As an example, you seem to think Red Savina continues to enjoy protection from the Plant Variety Protection Act. It has not since 2011. You then seem to be explaining the fair use of trademark rules. I can not tell if the name Red Savina is trademarked because the database seems down at the moment.
My question was: "At what point is it reasonable to add your name or initials to your own line and at what point is it just pompous?"
Kraken got it. Not as colorfully as I had hoped, but he got it. Not sure why you (Robstar) think there is something to defend. If I have given you that impression, I apologize. So lets just have the conversation.
Trinidad Butch T Scorpion - It is a refinement / narrowing of dna from a wider line called the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion. This is according to every reference I can find. Not sure why Robstar wants to bring up Moruga Scorpion and kind of like staying away from that quagmire considering the "Moruga Blend", "Moruga", "Moruga Scorpion", "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion", and other terms being used almost interchangeably. All be it mistakenly so, but still interchangeably.
Thinking we all agree that the Butch T came from the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion. Think we can all agree it is different than the average Trinidad Moruga Scorpion. I am asking at what point is the refinement so different that the pepper deserves a different name. I am not saying the Butch T does not deserve a different name. I am simply asking what the point is and using an example that clearly deserves it.
Red Savina - Not protected by PPA anymore, but a great subject because the rules of PPA dictate that you show that the new cultivar is in fact a new cultivar and thus deserving of a new name. I am not saying Red Savina did not deserve a new name, I am observing that it is obviously deserving of it.
Smokin Ed's Red Sav - Robstar said it might deserve the new name because it different in X, Y, and / or Z. Another great example of my question. Which X,Y, and Z? What makes it deserving of a new name?
Jay's Ghost Pepper - Yep, I did not know it was a cross. Knowing that, there is an entirely different question. Why would naming convention not note such a thing. Not saying it is not deserving of the new name, wondering why Jay would not have named it something like Jay's Ghost Scorpion.
Kraken, excellent bit about point in time. I have been selectively seed saving a normal orange hab for nearly a decade, refining the dna. The main thing I have been selecting for is wall thickness because I make a candy out the thing. Also, been selecting for the lower temps but that is not working out so well. Simple concoction, nutmeg, cinnamon, and honey heated, seeded / cored pepper soaks in the solution, then dehydrate. I do wind up with less heat, but I think that is from the oils going into the stuff I soak them in.
Anyway, I dont think it is distinct enough to call it A.J.'s Candy Ass Habanero. But it is different. Here is the thing, it becomes a bit more distinct every year, changes bit by bit as I refine the dna moving towards a set goal. At what point should it be called my candy ass hab? Once you give it a name, should you stop refining it?
And then there is the question of noting the origin of the seed. Lets talk something really well known: Ghost Pepper. Red Ghost Pepper seed from one seedman can be wildly different than Red Ghost Pepper seed from another seedman. The genetic for the thing we call Red Ghost Pepper is not a narrow grouping at all. In fact, their so much being bought in bulk and cut up into dime bags that the same seedman might give you different seed stock in the same order.
What system could exist where the particular seedman could note a specific line without the pompous attribute of renaming a pepper? I like the initial thing, but that kind of denotes something much more different than what I am addressing.
Robstar, found some information on Red Savina and trademark that mucks it up even more. Again, the official site is down but here is what i found.
"This is the brand and trademark page for RED SAVINA HABANERO which was created on September 30th, 2013 by GARCIA, JR., FRANK, an INDIVIDUAL. The trademark owner is located at 766 TROTTER COURT in WALNUT, CALIFORNIA. GARCIA, JR., FRANK can be contacted at 310 540-7241, IPLAW@DSLEXTREME.COM or ."
http://www.markhound.com/trademark/search/bLWNsEHnw
Frank Garcia is the original cultivator, demonstrated it was unique enough for PVPA, the protection expired, and it looks like he then went to protect the name via trademark. Not a lawyer and can not tell from this page when the name was originally trademarked. But it would seem that if it were trademarked in 2013 the claim might not be valid as it was commonly used for so long before a single person claimed it.
I suspect this brings an entirely new angle on this conversation. You will note Puckerbutt call it "Smokin Ed's Red Sav Habanero" and not "Red Savina Habanero". The DNA is no longer protected by PVPA, there is no mention of trademark at the Puckerbutt site. So I suspect the reason for renaming the thing is to avoid the trade mark infringement. No clue if the name difference is distinct enough for that purpose, but thinking it probably has more to do with copyright than being a distinct or different line as you indicated it must be.
http://store.puckerbuttpeppercompany.com/collections/smokin-hot-seeds/products/smokin-eds-red-sav-habanero
Hot damn this is turning into a fun topic.
