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#21 salsalady

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 01:16 AM

Per my Food Lab where I send my samples to get my scheduled process, they only require me to flip and hold inverted for 4 minutes (although I often keep them inverted for longer), then flip back right side up to cool. I don't know how the caps would seal to the bottle if they didn't cool right side up to create the pressure for the lid to seal


Does your process specifically say to fill-invert for 4 minutes...and then turn upright? Does it specifically say to turn rightside up?

Im asking to know if this is a new step in the process. None of my pa approved recipe notes say anything about setting upright.
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#22 Jubnat

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 08:03 PM

Per my Food Lab where I send my samples to get my scheduled process, they only require me to flip and hold inverted for 4 minutes (although I often keep them inverted for longer), then flip back right side up to cool. I don't know how the caps would seal to the bottle if they didn't cool right side up to create the pressure for the lid to seal


Of course they would still seal upside down. You're not relying on gravity to create the seal. The pressure for the lid to seal is the vacuum you create by filling the bottles with hot liquid and then capping them.

#23 pallottahot

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 09:44 PM

Does your process specifically say to fill-invert for 4 minutes...and then turn upright? Does it specifically say to turn rightside up?

Im asking to know if this is a new step in the process. None of my pa approved recipe notes say anything about setting upright.


Well it specifically says to hot fill then tilt and hold for at least four minutes then let natural cool for at least 5 minutes (I think this means natural cool at room temp instead of putting in a cooler). Now I'll
Have to go back and look about the flip. What's PA?

#24 salsalady

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:05 PM

process authority


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#25 pallottahot

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 11:44 AM

Does your process specifically say to fill-invert for 4 minutes...and then turn upright? Does it specifically say to turn rightside up?

Im asking to know if this is a new step in the process. None of my pa approved recipe notes say anything about setting upright.


Yes, well for two of my sauces it specifically says to "right" for so and so minutes

Edited by pallottahot, 06 February 2018 - 12:30 PM.


#26 salsalady

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 09:34 PM

Without revealing any trade secrets,. Could you type the specific words from the PA?
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#27 jhc

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 03:42 AM

Sorry for dumb question, but if you invert and leave it that way until fully cooled how does one ensure the sauce sterilizes the bottom of the bottle?

#28 Jubnat

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 10:47 PM

Sorry for dumb question, but if you invert and leave it that way until fully cooled how does one ensure the sauce sterilizes the bottom of the bottle?


Because, it is assumed that you sterilized the entire bottle(e.g. boiling in water), including the bottom, before filling. So, the sauce doesn't sterilize the bottle, because it doesn't need to.

#29 salsalady

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:35 PM

At some point, you just have go with what has been tried and true and what the AHJ's say to do. Its a combination of time and temp-
180f for 5 minutes or 200f for 90 seconds. (Dont quote me on that, i am not a food scientist). But that is the gist of it. Yes, the sauce cools as it is resting for the 5 minutes, but apparently that is enough to accomplish the task.

Maybe the combination of heated sauce hitting the bottom of the bottle provides initial sanitization up to a certain point, and the residual heat after the bottle is inverted provides enough heat to finish the process. I dunno...

But I do trust those smarter than me to figure all that stuff out. So as long as I follow procedures set out by the SmartFolks, I am good to go!
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#30 jhc

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:49 PM

Because, it is assumed that you sterilized the entire bottle(e.g. boiling in water), including the bottom, before filling. So, the sauce doesn't sterilize the bottle, because it doesn't need to.

 

But I've seen instructions saying it's ok to sterilize the bottles in the oven and then let them cool. Or run them through the dishwasher which is obviously isn't true sterilization. In either of those cases, when you pull the bottles out into your kitchen, they're no longer technically sterile, even if its unlikely that an airborne nasty will have time to float down to the bottom of your bottle.

 

I pull my bottles out hot and fill immediately so I think that largely takes care of this theoretical problem. I was more curious than anything.



#31 jhc

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 11:58 PM

At some point, you just have go with what has been tried and true and what the AHJ's say to do. Its a combination of time and temp-
180f for 5 minutes or 200f for 90 seconds. (Dont quote me on that, i am not a food scientist). But that is the gist of it. Yes, the sauce cools as it is resting for the 5 minutes, but apparently that is enough to accomplish the task.

Maybe the combination of heated sauce hitting the bottom of the bottle provides initial sanitization up to a certain point, and the residual heat after the bottle is inverted provides enough heat to finish the process. I dunno...

But I do trust those smarter than me to figure all that stuff out. So as long as I follow procedures set out by the SmartFolks, I am good to go!

I only ask because these smart folks are recommending inverting for a short period of time, then turning right side up for the remainder of the cooling period.

 

https://foodsafety.w...osing a Hot.pdf

 

Does your PA say it's ok to leave inverted until cool? That's what I've been doing but I get a little anal about food safety  :halo:



#32 salsalady

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:28 AM

My PA does not say when to re-vert. ( Is that a word? :lol:). Only to have sauce temp at more than 180f and invert for (rounded up) 2 minutes.

That is the instructions for all of the sauces I have gotten approved. The sauces vary with ingredients, but the directions are consistent.

I haven't looked at the link yet. IMHO, after the sauce has been inverted for the recommended time, do what you are comfortable with. Leave in the box, turn upright. Either one works.

And it's good to be anal about food safety. Always room for improvement in all aspects of food production.
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#33 salsalady

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 12:48 AM

 

But I've seen instructions saying it's ok to sterilize the bottles in the oven and then let them cool. Or run them through the dishwasher which is obviously isn't true sterilization. In either of those cases, when you pull the bottles out into your kitchen, they're no longer technically sterile, even if its unlikely that an airborne nasty will have time to float down to the bottom of your bottle.

 

I pull my bottles out hot and fill immediately so I think that largely takes care of this theoretical problem. I was more curious than anything.

 

I think we are obsessing over bottles when there is the whole process and all the equipment to consider. 

 

jhc is right, as others have commented in other posts, that once the bottles are taken out of the oven and exposed to the air, they are subject to spores and whatnot and are not technically sterilized/whatever. 

 

Bottles are only one component.  To add to everyone's OCD...think about every item used in the sauce making process, especially the last items in the chain.

 

The spoon or spatula that got set on the (unsanitized) counter and then used to stir the sauce again, the funnel that fell over onto the counter and then wiped with a cloth and used on the next bottle, is that bleach rag used to wipe the threads really as clean as you think it is?

 

 

 

 

Use quality ingredients, make sure the sauce has a low pH, follow established food processing practices, use common sense and err on the side of caution if in doubt about anything!, make it with love, passion, and excitement, and Have Fun!!!

SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS- if anyone is still using a sponge to wipe your kitchen counters and sink....GET RID OF IT!!! NOW!!! 

PPS- unless the wet sponge is microwaved daily for 30 seconds and rinsed with very strong bleach to kill all the reeeeaaally bad nasties.....

PPPS- never mind,... just get rid of that square petri dish.  It's not worth the risk~

 

 

sorry, didn't mean to go off on a tangent~

 

 

 

 


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#34 emanphoto

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:40 AM

I've posted about the problems I have had with cooking my thai chili sauce as there are oils in the chilies that separate and do not go back into solution.  So I depend on washing the bottles with fresh soap water, rinse, then put hot water in the rinsed tub and add a small amount of bleach to that and let the bottles soak in there up until close to time to bottle.  Then I rinse the bottles and fill them with boiling water.  As soon as I can I bottle the sauces, dumping the water of course.  The lids are in a small bowl into which I pour boiling water to sterilize.  

It's a fun time fishing them out with a strainer.

 

I am considering risking the next batch of fermented thai chili sauce using the BWB method to create the vacuum.  I leave all my sauces unrefrigerated as I am the guinea pig and get zero growths or issues except some oxidation causing a darkening discoloration near the lids.  All my mashes are pH 3.5 or lower before adding vinegar.  


Edited by emanphoto, 22 August 2018 - 02:21 AM.


#35 salsalady

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 01:39 PM

I asked my PA if uprighting the bottles in a certain time frame is a new requirement.  His reply-

 

"Hi Ann,

You are right, the hot fill hold part is the end of the specification. However, turning the product upright to cool is an obvious step in the process prior to packaging (in boxes, cartons, etc.) plus the food material on the inner surface of the lid can drain. In my opinion, I think the point is just to make it clear that the product does not stay inverted for extended periods because it is unnecessary. After 1 minute, the product can be turned upright for cooling. Maybe for some newer processors this was not always clear to them so process authorities are going that extra step to eliminate confusion.

Sincerely,
Jayne"

 

It sounds to me like they don't want the bottles inverted for an extended time.  Processing several gallons can take a couple hours.  I think it is safe to leave all the bottles in their cases inverted until done with processing, but then turn them back up before leaving/wrapping up for the day.

 


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#36 nice.chili

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 06:03 PM

@emanphoto or others: is the darkening near the lid solely caused by oxidation? Or is it also somehow light related? Sounds potentially stupid, but a suspicion I've had for a bit... or maybe I'm off paddling in the weeds

 

As for OCD, I know the feeling - for a big batch I generally try to sterilise everything, strainers, funnels, resting plates, etc. (Not really that hard, just a big pot of boiling water.) This coming from my cheese making adventures.



#37 HabaneroKayC

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:46 AM

 

But I've seen instructions saying it's ok to sterilize the bottles in the oven and then let them cool. Or run them through the dishwasher which is obviously isn't true sterilization. In either of those cases, when you pull the bottles out into your kitchen, they're no longer technically sterile, even if its unlikely that an airborne nasty will have time to float down to the bottom of your bottle.

 

I pull my bottles out hot and fill immediately so I think that largely takes care of this theoretical problem. I was more curious than anything.

 

I know this is a late response, but I believe that there's a time limit for how long it takes to be considered no longer sterile. I asked my inspector awhile back and I believe he said 4 hours (don't quote me on the actual time limit because it was a while ago). 

 

So for example, if you sterilize bottles in the oven, or kitchenware in the sink with some sort of bleach mixture, it shouldn't just become "unsterile" once it hits the air. 



#38 emanphoto

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 08:24 AM

The darkening starts from the top so I'd say it's oxidation.  Can't say it's not possible but only very little indirect sunlight gets near them. Usually it's opened ones that are unrefrigerated.  There's no shortage of sauce in this house so if one goes bad it's a learning experience.  :) 

 

@emanphoto or others: is the darkening near the lid solely caused by oxidation? Or is it also somehow light related? Sounds potentially stupid, but a suspicion I've had for a bit... or maybe I'm off paddling in the weeds

 

As for OCD, I know the feeling - for a big batch I generally try to sterilise everything, strainers, funnels, resting plates, etc. (Not really that hard, just a big pot of boiling water.) This coming from my cheese making adventures.

 






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