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Chemical vs. Organic

I have a bit of experience with herbicide, pesticide, and chemical fertilizer on corn, soy, and hay.  But that experience comes from a 100 acre farm.  Much different than my own grow.  On my tiny little farm, we are almost completely organic and in the ground.  I age barn and pond scrapings and then till them into my soil.  In fact, my property started with mostly clay.  So I kind of needed to build the soil up before I could get much production out the land.

At the end of a season and then early spring, I sick goats and a sheep on the weeds to clean up the fields, moving them from one area to another.  Anything left gets tilled under.  For pest control, I thought we used only duck and chicken but recently learned that toads and box turtle are likely doing a job too.  Yes, the poultry gets some of the lower fruit but it seems like an acceptable trade.
 
Without going into hydroponics, I am curious how folk who go the other route grow.  Does anyone use a herbicide to clear their fields?  How about pesticides?  If you use a chemical fertilizer, what do you use?  Most interesting to me is why go those routes?





 
 
I use pesticides because I got sick of fighting a losing battle using the organic approach. Safer soap, spraying water, hoping ladybugs pull their weight, etc only barely made a dent in my aphid infestation but a little bit of Azamax kills em dead. Although Azamax is technically organic, it is OMRI listed and derived from the active ingredient in neem. I also use spinosad for thrips but that is also OMRI listed. 
 
When I grow in containers I do use chemical fertilizer too because I prefer to grow in a fast draining soilless medium. Maxibloom is a perfect 1 part dry fert that is water soluable and contains everything you need to grow great peppers from start to finish. Growing in soilless mix is essentially no different than hydroponics in that you have to provide all the nutrients for the plant via liquid nutrients.
 
When I grow in the ground though I stick to compost & organic solid fertilizer like tomato tone though. 
 
ajdrew said:
I have a bit of experience with herbicide, pesticide, and chemical fertilizer on corn, soy, and hay.  But that experience comes from a 100 acre farm.  Much different than my own grow.  On my tiny little farm, we are almost completely organic and in the ground.  I age barn and pond scrapings and then till them into my soil.  In fact, my property started with mostly clay.  So I kind of needed to build the soil up before I could get much production out the land.

At the end of a season and then early spring, I sick goats and a sheep on the weeds to clean up the fields, moving them from one area to another.  Anything left gets tilled under.  For pest control, I thought we used only duck and chicken but recently learned that toads and box turtle are likely doing a job too.  Yes, the poultry gets some of the lower fruit but it seems like an acceptable trade.
 
Without going into hydroponics, I am curious how folk who go the other route grow.  Does anyone use a herbicide to clear their fields?  How about pesticides?  If you use a chemical fertilizer, what do you use?  Most interesting to me is why go those routes?





 
I grow organically as much as possible as for fall/winter growing some type of cover crop then tilling it under in the spring is what alot of farmer's are during around here large or small.
Acrose crop rotatation if you can do it some around here I notice sometime just leave a field alone a season with the cover crop on it .
I figure these are the larger farm guys who grow mostly corn an soy beans etc
Your soil most of been similar to southeast Missouri soil.
We have that clay an rock etc not surprising since your a niegbouring state
I like what your doing with your farm AJ & hope all is going well with you.
PS Aphids are just plain hard to kill I've been fighting the war since early this season.
I recently seened a aphid infestation in a local store pretty sure they use tradional pesticides .
So those buggers are adapting or a new species of them (probably some asian aphid ) has come into the state's .
 
I've had aphid problems indoors.  Outside, they seem to prefer other plants.  I get them, but not in a concentration that is dangerous. 
 
FWIW,
 
I got by w/o pesticides this year.  in 2015 I needed to twice fog the aphids on my spring starts and overwintered plants.  Used a pyrethrin based fogger with good results. Otherwise, I let the bugs fight it out.  The Good Guys usually arrive in March, a few weeks after the aphids, and soon knock their numbers down to the point that they aren't doing much harm.
( Aphids vs Parasitic Pasps and Lacewing Larvae, WAR! )
 
Apart from aphids, the big hornworms are really the only significant pest.  I just pluck them and toss them on the least-favorite-neighbor's flowerbed.   :twisted:  To poison the entire plant with a systemic, or regularly apply some toxic spray makes zero sense for me.  I LIKE the bees and spiders and lacewings and other critters the plants attract.
 
 
Started with chem ferts - Miracle Grow Blue Crystals - because they are quick and cheap and complete with most of the trace minerals required.
A local nursery owner makes a bat-poo based complete organic mix that works really well (Anyone in Tucson should contact Tony at Magic Gardens) and has me leaning in the organic direction.  I'm going to buy more of his stuff, some bat poo, and/or fish soup soon.  Will continue to use a dash of MG and epsom if the plants start looking N or Mag challenged.  
 
Growing in tabletop containers and Wallybags because my yard is open and Javelina roam the neighborhood...
 
Geonerd said:
FWIW,
 
I got by w/o pesticides this year.  in 2015 I needed to twice fog the aphids on my spring starts and overwintered plants.  Used a pyrethrin based fogger with good results. Otherwise, I let the bugs fight it out.  The Good Guys usually arrive in March, a few weeks after the aphids, and soon knock their numbers down to the point that they aren't doing much harm.
( Aphids vs Parasitic Pasps and Lacewing Larvae, WAR! )
 
Apart from aphids, the big hornworms are really the only significant pest.  I just pluck them and toss them on the least-favorite-neighbor's flowerbed.   :twisted:  To poison the entire plant with a systemic, or regularly apply some toxic spray makes zero sense for me.  I LIKE the bees and spiders and lacewings and other critters the plants attract.
 
 
Started with chem ferts - Miracle Grow Blue Crystals - because they are quick and cheap and complete with most of the trace minerals required.
A local nursery owner makes a bat-poo based complete organic mix that works really well (Anyone in Tucson should contact Tony at Magic Gardens) and has me leaning in the organic direction.  I'm going to buy more of his stuff, some bat poo, and/or fish soup soon.  Will continue to use a dash of MG and epsom if the plants start looking N or Mag challenged.  
 
Growing in tabletop containers and Wallybags because my yard is open and Javelina roam the neighborhood...
ugh. systems are not "poison" anymore than neem or pyrethrins or what ever else wholsome chemicals nature ordained you to use.

bees spiders and what ever else will be safe from any systemic, or sprayed insecticide provided you spray/drench properly. spiders living inside a plant? yes they will be killed. killed to death. but most modern insectacides will NOT persist more than 8 hours or so in direct sunlight. most will last alot less than that.

how many times do we/i have to reminde folks of this... organic does not mean safe. organic has 0 to do with safety.

the fact that you dont agree with a particular approach does not give you license to make shit up... just saying.
 
queequeg152 said:
ugh. systems are not "poison" anymore than neem or pyrethrins or what ever else wholsome chemicals nature ordained you to use.

bees spiders and what ever else will be safe from any systemic, or sprayed insecticide provided you spray/drench properly. spiders living inside a plant? yes they will be killed. killed to death. but most modern insectacides will NOT persist more than 8 hours or so in direct sunlight. most will last alot less than that.

how many times do we/i have to reminde folks of this... organic does not mean safe. organic has 0 to do with safety.

the fact that you dont agree with a particular approach does not give you license to make shit up... just saying.
 
WTF is this rant about?
 
A systemic insecticide will very much POISON the entire freaking plant.  Any insect that partakes of sap, pollen, leaf tissue, etc, will be POISONED.  
 
Of course organic does not mean safe.  You can cause damage either way.  But I do think it is easier to achieve the best flavor by going organic and using natural decomposition of organic material to feed your pants.  But I also think that you can achieve higher yields initially with chemical fertilizer because the natural route takes time to break down the organic material and turn it into the chemicals that plants need.

Each general method and each specific method has its ups and downs.  For my grow, a person needs much more land than just the crop area.  No other way to produce your own nutrients and takes more time for the soil to be initially full of nutrients.  Not something you can do on a balcony or small back yard.  With ready made nutrients, you can grow just about anywhere and in the smallest space.
 
I like to try to just be sensible. Certain organic practices can go a long way to enhancing soil structure, water retention, drainage, microbes etc in a way that is difficult to impossible to replicate with ionic salt based fertilizers. But I think to the layman organic is a byword for sustainability and environmentally friendliness which it is not.
 
For me I try to use chicken manure and fish blood and bone, mix it in the soil before the start of the season and let the worms and soil organisms get to work. But in pots(especially indoors) i almost never use organic stuff because either it smells or its a pain in the butt and the soil health is partially restored when i pot up.
 
Geonerd said:
WTF is this rant about?
 
A systemic insecticide will very much POISON the entire freaking plant.  Any insect that partakes of sap, pollen, leaf tissue, etc, will be POISONED.
nope you need to research that which you rail against.

most systemics only reisde in the pholem. imidicloprid for example is almost undetectable in fruit tissue and especially in pollen, and nectar to a lesser extent.

the only times you can detect it in pollen is when you spray unrealistic doeses, or you use insanely sensitive techniques that can read sub parts per BILLION. the only insects that can be sensitivve to shit in the nanogram range are bees, but at real field rates, its VERY hard to them to be exposed to evven the sub lethal doses that are thought to cause bee retardation.

its not a "poison" any more than copper sulfate is.

its not poisonous to plants what so ever not in the range you should be applying it.
 
willard3 said:
Chemical and organic fertilizers are  the same stuff: only the physical form is different.
I think what you mean is that organic fertilizers become the chemicals that plants need.  From working on a commercial farm, my guess is that chemical fertilizers seem to improve yield because the soil is lacking what is being added with the chemicals.  Once at the point where the soil is lacking, going the organic route doesn't seem to help at much first because it takes time to break it down to a point it is useful to plants.
 
That was kind of what I was going for with the thread.  What are the ups and what are the downs of each.  Chemical is certainly faster.
 
conventional farming is better in almost all aspects, yield labor failure rates etc,  but organic farming is usually more profitable per unit of land.
 
thats pretty much it. i dont see how you can work on a commercial scale farm and not know that?
 
queequeg152 said:
conventional farming is better in almost all aspects, yield labor failure rates etc,  but organic farming is usually more profitable per unit of land.
 
thats pretty much it. i dont see how you can work on a commercial scale farm and not know that?
Easy, I have no experience with a 100 acre organic hay, soy, or corn operation to compare it to.  My organic experience is here on my own tiny farm where a walk behind tiller, shovel, and wheel barrel are involved.  The guy I worked for had tractors whose mortgages were more than his home.  Completely different operations, mine can barely be called a farm.
 
Plantguy76 said:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/organic-vs-pesticides-78448.html
There is a study that came out last year that pointed to the gap between traditional farming an organic is not as wide as once believed
Once the soil is established, that is kind of what I would expect except when it comes to pests. 
 
My exterminators just showed up!
IMG_2181_zps4ed5j4z1.jpg
you can either work with nature or against it.  Nature works as a system, remove one of the pieces and the system fails, If i remove the prey (pests) before these guys hatch they wont stick around and Ill be left to fend off any pests that do show up all by myself.  Which means more work for me and more reliance on chemical means which will eventually kill the soil. Then I'll have to do all the work the soil life did. I just want to enjoy my garden, let nature do the work!
https://entomologytoday.org/2016/04/07/mexican-researchers-observe-autonomous-control-of-scale-insects/
 
   “Autonomous control requires an ecological infrastructure that supports a network of interactions that limit the explosive growth of herbivores,” Cruz-Rodríguez said. “Intercropping, agroforestry systems, non-use of biocidal products (or its more rational application) — they all contribute to the formation of the biotic network that prevents the development of pests.”
 
i thought preying mantis's were super territorial?
 
do they fight it out when they mature? you should get some video of these things when/if they go at it.
your greenhouse looks ineteresting too. do you have any details on its construction?
 
looks like aluminum extrusions?
 
     Yeah, mantises aren't the top choice for keeping pepper plants clean. They like aphids when they're young, but soon get too big to care about them. They might be helpful against stinkbugs or squash bugs and the like, though. And yes, qq, they are territorial and cannibalistic. I usually end up with only like one or two of them hanging around by mid summer even when I manage to have an ootheca or two in my yard.
     But all of this ^ is moot, 'cuz holy CRAP are they fun to watch!   :shocked:
 
willard3 said:
Chemical and organic fertilizers are  the same stuff: only the physical form is different.
I have read that a plant does not know the difference between synthetic nitrogen and organic nitrogen - nitrogen is nitrogen to the plant. I am not a botanist so I don't know if it's true.
 
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