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Hot Sauce and SHU ??

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Pondered this.  Read about this.  Talked to member OneTom2Go who measure SHU for South West Biolab.  Might be remembering his name wrong, but prity sure I remember the discussion right.  As I understand it.
 
SHU is a measurement of a dry material, so it does not matter the volume or mass when making a measurement.
 
1 ounce of pure capsaicin crystals measures at 16 million shu.
1 pound of pure capsaicin crystals measures at 16 million shu.

So rating a hot sauce or any liquid by SHU alone is misleading.  I guess you could devise a system where you dehydrated the hot sauce, measured the shu of the dry substance, and then stated how much of the dry substance were dissolved in a given volume of liquid.  But SHU itself just doest cut it for a liquid.

Thing is, someone is debating me tooth and nail on this.  Is there something I am missing?
 
Another way of looking at it:

Buy two bottles of same hot sauce.
Dilute one bottle with 50% water.

If you then dehydrated both bottles, they would have the same SHU because it is a measurement of a dry powder without any respect to volume or mass.
 
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AJ Drew said:
Another way of looking at it:

Buy two bottles of same hot sauce.
Dilute one bottle with 50% water.

If you then dehydrated both bottles, they would have the same SHU because it is a measurement of a dry powder without any respect to volume or mass.
Click to expand...
 
i don't think you would be measuring the dry content of both entire bottles 
 
take 1 bottle and dilute it by 50% then take; say 5ml out of the now diluted batch and 5ml out of the non diluted batch, now dehydrate those 5ml samples. 1 should be roughly 50% weaker 
 
or are you asking about shu of the entire bottle/batch ?
:drunk:
:cheers:
 
I suppose the real question is "how do they test for SHU?"
 
I would think there is a specific state the product has to be in regardless if they receive it in pod/sauce/powder form they would have to convert it into "X" form.
From there a specific amount would be needed or the test would be invalid.
 
My 2 cents :crazy:
 
Hot sauce  SHU ratings are probably based loosely on the documented SHU of the base pepper being used in the sauce. I highly, HIGHLY doubt the sauce was sent out to be tested and even if it was, the results would only be useful for the tested sample or batch the sample originated from.
 
 
The Hot Pepper said:
What is your question?
Click to expand...
 

Question is am I right about how SHU works?  If so, the math would look like this.

Capsaicin measures 16,000,000 SHU
Dilution  A - 1 gram capsaicin crystals dissolved into a liquid.
Dilution  B - 2 grams capsaicin crystals dissolved into a liquid.

Obviously, dilution A will seem hotter.  However, if you were to measure the SHU of either dilution, you would first remove all the liquid and then measure what is left.  If everything went right, both would measure 16,000,000 SHU even though one dilution had twice the heat.

Seems to me, SHU does not measure the volume of capsaicin dissolved in a liquid.  So claiming an SHU for a hot sauce is kind of bunk.  A more accurate measurement of hot sauce would be how much capsaicin is dissolved into a volume of hot sauce.  Maybe something like 1 gram x fluid ounce.  The if they really wanted to use SHU they could call it what ever SHU using the 1g x fl oz method or something. 
 
It's all about PPM--- and it's correlating one scale to another.
 
 
The original Scoville Scale used a dilution of peppers in sugar water until the "test subjects" detected no heat in the solution. 
 
Modern technology ...since about  1990... has used HPLC.  High Performance Liquid Chromatography
 
which is also used to measure the pungency of items like garlic, cinnamon, paprika, onion, nutmeg, .......
 
The HPLC testing method measures the amount of capsaicinoids in the sample and correlates that PPM of capsaicinoids back to the original Scoville scale.  In other testing, it measures the pungency of "WHATEVER" the chemical compound is in the test item and can correlate that back to a known standard and give  the sample a pungency rating.,   
 
So when someone asks "What is the SHU of this "random-mixed-blended-crosspollinated" pepper???
 
how spicy is this cinnamon?
how pungent is this garlic powder?'
how hot is this new Naja/Bhut/Reaper pepper that showed up in my garden this year?
 
DUNNO!!!! Until it's tested.  
 
 
 
dunno if this helps~~ :shrug:
 
 
 
AJ Drew said:
 
Question is am I right about how SHU works?  If so, the math would look like this.

Capsaicin measures 16,000,000 SHU
Dilution  A - 1 gram capsaicin crystals dissolved into a liquid.
Dilution  B - 2 grams capsaicin crystals dissolved into a liquid.

Obviously, dilution A will seem hotter.  However, if you were to measure the SHU of either dilution, you would first remove all the liquid and then measure what is left.  If everything went right, both would measure 16,000,000 SHU even though one dilution had twice the heat.

Seems to me, SHU does not measure the volume of capsaicin dissolved in a liquid.  So claiming an SHU for a hot sauce is kind of bunk.  A more accurate measurement of hot sauce would be how much capsaicin is dissolved into a volume of hot sauce.  Maybe something like 1 gram x fluid ounce.  The if they really wanted to use SHU they could call it what ever SHU using the 1g x fl oz method or something. 
Click to expand...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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also capsaicin is only part of the equation, there are other common capsaicinoids that can change the perceived burn than just capsaicin.
 
Guatemalan Insanity Pepper said:
 
also capsaicin is only part of the equation, there are other common capsaicinoids that can change the perceived burn than just capsaicin.
Click to expand...
 
Sure but if I use pure capsaicin crystals as an example I can say it is 16,000,000 SHU.  I have no clue what other capsaicinoids are measured at.  Hell, I only know about the pure crystals from reading on Pure Evil.  Anyway, the point being a thing that is X SHU is still X SHU even if you double the mass.
 
The pure crystalline 16,000,000 "capsaicin" you are referring to is actually a mix of all the different capsaicinoids.  It's incorrectly referred to as just capsaicin.  I'm guilty of this also, usually just being lazy when typing, and not wanting to 'splain it.  The word 'capsaicin' is also the common name used on official documents for import, duty, FDA, etc. 
 
Every lot I get comes with a CoA, there are some small variations from lot to lot, but they are all close to the following-
 
Total Capsaicinoids  100%
capsaicin ~60%
dihydrocapsaicin ~20%
nordihydro ~8-10%
all others~10%
 
 
I'm pretty sure SW Biolabs measures all the capsaicinoids, then correlates that back to the Scoville scale, not just capsaicin.  The documents I have don't call out the total PPM of capsaicinoids, just the SHU end results.   
 
At your previous question, if 5oz of sauce is X SHU and you mix it with 5 oz of water, the mixture is now 50% of the original SHU, because the capsaicin has been mixed with twice the amount of sauce, thereby reducing the PPM of capsaicin by 50%.  1 gram of capsaicin in 5 oz of sauce -v- 1 gram capsaicin in 10 oz of sauce.
 
 
 
 
Guatemalan Insanity Pepper said:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
220px-Oxycodone.svg.png


also capsaicin is only part of the equation, there are other common capsaicinoids that can change the perceived burn than just capsaicin.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, but lab test cannot measure (perceived). That is a sensation of individuality. Everyone may have a similar and yet different perception. Even so with SHU, Not everyone is susceptible as the next. SHU is a marketing measurement that means really nothing to the ingester. hot is hot, HOT is HOT and nuclear is, well, you know.
 
 
...which is exactly why Scoville's method is not used any more.  2 people eating the same product/sauce/chile can have drastically different experiences based on their tolerances. 
 
But it is not just a marketing ploy.  Pungency testing does have important uses in the food service industry.  If a manufacturer is using jalapeno powder to dust the chips, we all know heat can vary from batch to batch and year to year.  If they have a batch of powder that is 20-30% hotter than last years batch, they need to adjust their recipe accordingly to keep the same heat level in the end product.
 
 
When talking about capsaicinoid percentages in various peppers, there is some credence to ...I dunno the right word..."general acceptance???".... of certain traits of certain chiles.  When enough people sample ChileA and most people say it has a hard&fast burn but fades quickly, and ChileA has slightly more of (whichever) capsaicinoid compound...  and then ChileB has a slow creeping searing burn that doesn't stop and ChileB has more of the "other" capsaicinoid.... there can be some correlations made.  
 
 
I don't think anyone has ever done a (scientific or grass roots) study of the heat profiles of chiles and their respective capsaicinoid breakdowns.  It would be interesting to see.  AlabamaJack came up with what he called the Perfect Pepper Blend that hit ALLLL the heat sensors.  I can't remember what all he had in there, I think it was a blend of 4 superhots.
 
salsalady said:
...which is exactly why Scoville's method is not used any more.  2 people eating the same product/sauce/chile can have drastically different experiences based on their tolerances. 
 
 
Click to expand...
 
 
     If perception of heat or hotness were simply left up to subjective interpretation, this ^ might be true, but I thought the original Scoville test was designed to minimize the minimize the influence of a person's tolerance to capsaicin. 
     If a taster had simply been given a pepper and asked to tell how many Scoville units they thought it rated, the results would be skewed by that person's own tastes and tolerances of different capsaicinods. 
     But since the Scoville test only asks whether or not a taster can detect heat (just a +/- answer), It takes any subjective estimation of "heat level" out of the equation. I can detect low levels of heat in things my wife finds spicy. We both detect the capsaicin but our estimations of heat level differ. 
   
     The HPLC method is an OK approximation of actual SHU, but since it doesn't differentiate among different capsaicinoids, it can only spit out a number that reflects an estimation. What if one particular pepper has a huge concentration of a relatively mild tasting capsaicinoid? Could another pepper that produces a smaller amount of a hotter capsaicingoid taste hotter? Which should have the higher SHU?
 
I don't know all the details of the original Scoville testing other than the peppers were diluted in sugar water until 3 out of the 5 panel tasters felt no discernable heat.  Which does correlate to what HM01 is saying.  I think that some people with a high heat tolerance would not feel the heat in the Scoville test and others with a very low tolerance would feel heat.  Dunno, just wondering~
 
 
The HPLC measures the total mount of capsaicinoids in the test item.  I believe they can determine the exact breakdown of the different capsaicinoids, but I'd have to check with SWBL to make sure.   The CoA's I receive with capsaicin powder shipments do have lab analysis breakdowns.  I'm dealing with pure product, not a pepper or sauce, so exact analysis is expected.   
 
There isn't a "huge" variation of amounts of the different capsaicinoids from item to item.  But those subtle variations do contribute to how each pepper "feels" and the different body reactions.  SHU is a number for the total amount of all the capsaicinoids.
 
Maybe, eventually, more taste testing can be done to determine which capsaicinoid produces which heat reaction. (hot/fast, slow/creep, gut, endorphine, etc)  .  It's an interesting topic! 
 
 
salsalady said:
...which is exactly why Scoville's method is not used any more.  2 people eating the same product/sauce/chile can have drastically different experiences based on their tolerances. 
 
But it is not just a marketing ploy.  Pungency testing does have important uses in the food service industry.  If a manufacturer is using jalapeno powder to dust the chips, we all know heat can vary from batch to batch and year to year.  If they have a batch of powder that is 20-30% hotter than last years batch, they need to adjust their recipe accordingly to keep the same heat level in the end product.
 
 
When talking about capsaicinoid percentages in various peppers, there is some credence to ...I dunno the right word..."general acceptance???".... of certain traits of certain chiles.  When enough people sample ChileA and most people say it has a hard&fast burn but fades quickly, and ChileA has slightly more of (whichever) capsaicinoid compound...  and then ChileB has a slow creeping searing burn that doesn't stop and ChileB has more of the "other" capsaicinoid.... there can be some correlations made.  
 
 
I don't think anyone has ever done a (scientific or grass roots) study of the heat profiles of chiles and their respective capsaicinoid breakdowns.  It would be interesting to see.  AlabamaJack came up with what he called the Perfect Pepper Blend that hit ALLLL the heat sensors.  I can't remember what all he had in there, I think it was a blend of 4 superhots.
Click to expand...
 
 
I like the way you talk.... :P
 
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