Trippaul Threat (PdN x BMJ) Community Grow

OCD Chilehead · Nov 18, 2018

Hello Paul. Just making some time and catching up with your glog.

Thanks again for the seeds. They will be my primary grow this coming season. Im especially excited to hear that they can tolaerate the heat as well as the cold. Sounds like a perfect Colorado pepper. Cant wait to get them into the Aerogardens. Still a bit early, but will be making preparations soon.

Thanks again friend

Chuck

Bookers · Nov 18, 2018

Paul the peppers you sent are dried and in power form! awesome thanks...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

b3rnd · Nov 19, 2018

I found this very cool blogpost explaining some of the genetics of pepper colours. He also made a follow-up post here.

According to that information, the reason there are two colour variations in this cross is because of a recessive gene that inhibits the breakdown of anthocyanins. This is the gene that makes Pimenta da Neyde pods keep their purple colour when ripe.

The ivory colour is somewhat of a mystery because the carotenoid mutation (c2) that makes Bonda Ma Jacques yellow (instead of red) shouldn't result in a white pepper without also having the other carotenoid mutation (c1). If I had to make a guess, I'd say the Pimenta da Neyde maybe supplied the cross with the c1 mutation. Because of the overpowering anthocyanin, this wouldn't do anything visible in the PdN pods.

So I think Trippa was on the right track with his initial idea (purple pepper that ripens to yellow), but the genetics didn't allow it. It should still be possible though.

SpeakPolish · Nov 19, 2018

b3rnd said:
I found this very cool blogpost explaining some of the genetics of pepper colours. He also made a follow-up post here.

According to that information, the reason there are two colour variations in this cross is because of a recessive gene that inhibits the breakdown of anthocyanins. This is the gene that makes Pimenta da Neyde pods keep their purple colour when ripe.

The ivory colour is somewhat of a mystery because the carotenoid mutation (c2) that makes Bonda Ma Jacques yellow (instead of red) shouldn't result in a white pepper without also having the other carotenoid mutation (c1). If I had to make a guess, I'd say the Pimenta da Neyde maybe supplied the cross with the c1 mutation. Because of the overpowering anthocyanin, this wouldn't do anything visible in the PdN pods.

So I think Trippa was on the right track with his initial idea (purple pepper that ripens to yellow), but the genetics didn't allow it. It should still be possible though.

Those blog posts are awesome, I remember reading that a year ago. It would be cool if a pattern appears like the Pink TIger

PaulG · Nov 19, 2018

OCD Chilehead said:
Hello Paul. Just making some time and catching up with your glog.

Thanks again for the seeds. They will be my primary grow this coming season. Im especially excited to hear that they can tolaerate the heat as well as the cold. Sounds like a perfect Colorado pepper. Cant wait to get them into the Aerogardens. Still a bit early, but will be making preparations soon.

Thanks again friend

Chuck

Good to hear from you, Chuck! I hope things are well at your end.

I hope the seeds germ well for you. The past two seasons, I've had
a hard time with them. I don't know if my routine has deteriorated or
if these are just tough to germinate. I start lots to hopefully make sure
I get a few hooks.

Bookers said:
Paul the peppers you sent are dried and in power form! awesome thanks...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Alright, let the hot times roll!

b3rnd said:
I found this very cool blogpost explaining some of the genetics of pepper colours. He also made a follow-up post here.

According to that information, the reason there are two colour variations in this cross is because of a recessive gene that inhibits the breakdown of anthocyanins. This is the gene that makes Pimenta da Neyde pods keep their purple colour when ripe.

The ivory colour is somewhat of a mystery because the carotenoid mutation (c2) that makes Bonda Ma Jacques yellow (instead of red) shouldn't result in a white pepper without also having the other carotenoid mutation (c1). If I had to make a guess, I'd say the Pimenta da Neyde maybe supplied the cross with the c1 mutation. Because of the overpowering anthocyanin, this wouldn't do anything visible in the PdN pods.

So I think Trippa was on the right track with his initial idea (purple pepper that ripens to yellow), but the genetics didn't allow it. It should still be possible though.

Most interesting, Bernd. I wish I had kept more seed from the original
plants I had. The yellow F3 would have been a great one to grow out.

I suppose the only way to recover that generation is to start a new cross
of the PDN x BMJ and see if a yellow pod emerges in the F3 again. The yellow
F3 pods were on my neighbor's plant, and I did't get any seed from that one :mope:

Maybe that is a project worth getting into.

PaulG · Nov 19, 2018

The F4 plants are toast:

But managed to ripen up the last of the pods to a nice white color.
These are the nicest out of about two dozen:

Two F6 are trying very hard to mature the last round of pods they set.
Lots of really pretty violet colored pods on both.

F6W2:

F6W-LP:

b3rnd · Nov 20, 2018

Some more information about what I said earlier. Peter Merle from Semillas la Palma (semillas on the forum) has been doing some interesting experiments with thin-layer chromatography. It's a chemical process involving a solvent (acetone), which separates the colours of the pepper in different bands. It's really very cool, you can find pictures and information on his Facebook page. It is in German but should be clear enough when translated by Google.

One of the peppers he did this with was the Yaki Blue Fawn. He found out that the pepper had neither chlorophyll nor carotenoids, just anthocyanins. I asked him if he had tried it with the PdN and if it maybe had the same trait as the Yaki Blue Fawn. Unfortunately, he didn't grow PdN this year. He did mention that the results would surely be different because Pimenta da Neydes without anthocyanin are 'cream white', while Yaki Blue Fawns without it are red.

This would confirm my theory that Pimenta da Neyde supplied the c1 mutation. In fact, because it's white it actually has both the c1 and the c2 mutations. I'm pretty sure that means the cross is homozygous for the c2 mutation, so that's positive. Remember the c2 gene is partly responsible for the yellow colour (together with the mutation that makes red peppers orange, referred to as y).

But then that raises the question: where did the red pods come from in one of the previous generations? It should (according to my theory above) be heterozygous for y and c2 so there shouldn't have been any plants with red pods.

Of course, this is all just speculation and I have no idea if any of the information I have is even correct. There's also the possibility that I have no idea what I'm talking about.

PaulG said:
Most interesting, Bernd. I wish I had kept more seed from the original
plants I had. The yellow F3 would have been a great one to grow out.

I suppose the only way to recover that generation is to start a new cross
of the PDN x BMJ and see if a yellow pod emerges in the F3 again. The yellow
F3 pods were on my neighbor's plant, and I did't get any seed from that one

Maybe that is a project worth getting into.

That is unfortunate, Paul. Maybe you could try backcrossing it to another Bonda ma Jacques? It would set you back a bit, but less so than starting from scratch. Not all is lost! Besides, the cross is pretty f-ing cool as is.

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

Interesting point about the red pigmentation in F1.
The contrast between the F1 (red), F2 (yellow) and
the later generations' colors (white, ivory and violet)
is quite remarkable.

I am really looking forward to seeing what the F7
generation looks like. I wonder if the 2:1 ratio of
plants with violet pods to plants with white pods
in my F6 generation will hold? And what the F5
generation will look like since all three F4 plants
had white pods.

Of course, then there are climate and weather
considerations. The heat of the summer produces
different shadings compared to the cooler Fall
weather pods, and the whitest pods come from
the inner shaded regions of the bush in general.

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

b3rnd said:
Of course, this is all just speculation and I have no idea if any of the information I have is even correct.
It sounds good to me, the guy knows more than I do for sure.

There's also the possibility that I have no idea what I'm talking about.
I feel your pain, brother

That is unfortunate, Paul. Maybe you could try backcrossing it to another Bonda ma Jacques? It would set you back a bit, but less so than starting from scratch. Not all is lost! Besides, the cross is pretty f-ing cool as is.

Yes, it is. It would be interesting to start over and be more
careful with isolating, saving seeds, etc. That might give me
something to live for into my 80's :rofl:

I am interested in the BJ hybrid that I think was produced by
a BJ red x (PdN x BMJ). The year that the hybrid was produced,
the cross was the only purple plant in my grow. The foliage on
the BJ hybrid is purple, and the pods are orangey-red.

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

Off topic post, but remember when, a couple of years ago, PhotoBucket
decided to start charging everyone $35 a month for hosting photos? If
you didn't sign up, your photos just disappeared off any web pages
they were on.

Well, I went back to look at my earlier glogs for some info today, and
all the photos are back! They all have a 'Proudly hosted on PhotoBucket'
label, but at least they are there. Anyone know the back story behind this?
I wonder when the pics became available again?

At any rate, it's very nice to be able to have pix on my earlier glogs again.

Later: Found an article online that details the situation. Don't know how
long the photos will be up for, if I don't sign up. Interesting.

SpeakPolish · Nov 21, 2018

Did anyone breed the Violet and White phenols together? Would be interesting if there were mixed coloration

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

SpeakPolish said:
Did anyone breed the Violet and White phenols together? Would be interesting if there were mixed coloration

No. This is the first year for the violet coloration. The plants
the violet pods came from (not F6P) were all grown from
white pod seeds, so go figure. As it is, some plants produce
a few white and mostly violet pods, but it would be interesting
to try for a violet/white variegated.

The white pods have always had purple blush on some of the
tips, but nothing like the F6W-1 and F6W-2 have shown this
season. The F6P produced some darker pods, as well. Even
the F6W-LP produced violet-shaded pods as the weather cooled,
even though it's first rounds of pods were creamy white.

So, genetics, climate, weather, local conditions, and maybe even grower
methodology I suspect all have something to do with the expression
of the white and violet shades. That's why I'm glad there are so many
growers next season, we should get a very good idea of what the
consistent traits are in the F7 generation! So far, so good.

Masher · Nov 21, 2018

I'm hoping for something good off that Scarlet double I saved seeds from.

I thought it was a purple but clearly it was a Scarlet off the same plant that yielded only a dozen whites I expect.

Varigated would be very cool.

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

deleted duplicate post

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

Masher said:
I'm hoping for something good off that Scarlet double I saved seeds from.

I thought it was a purple but clearly it was a Scarlet off the same plant that yielded only a dozen whites I expect.

Varigated would be very cool.

Me, too, Dan. Mine is part of the germination test I'm doing.
I really hope it's viable and robust. That violet globe-shaped
pod was just too beautiful!

I'm always worried about seed viability, especially since I've
had a couple of seasons with really disgusting germ rates. And
this season, with so many people growing it out...

So, I've decided to do a germ test of the F6W seeds and the
violet pod that Dan mentioned above. If anything germinates,
I'll grow the F7 seedling out.

I put 14 seeds into the AeroGarden on 11/8. Now, 13 days later,
no hooks. It looks like some of the visible seed jackets are moving
around a bit, but it's probably my imagination.

The little cup also contains about a dozen or so seeds in paper towels.
They went in about 8-10 days ago.

Germination test, F6W, 60 seeds, started 11/20 in seed starting mix:

24 F6W-LP - seeds from 21/2 inch white pods (same as sent out)
12 F4 W
12 F6W-LP - seeds from 31/4 inch white pod
12 F6W-1 Violet, globe-shaped

Okay, there it is for all to see. For better or worse.
As they say in Spain, He puesto los cojones en la mesa.
Hoping for good germination rates. I'll wait as long as
it takes :rofl:

internationalfish · Nov 21, 2018

PaulG said:
Off topic post, but remember when, a couple of years ago, PhotoBucket
decided to start charging everyone $35 a month for hosting photos? If
you didn't sign up, your photos just disappeared off any web pages
they were on.

Well, I went back to look at my earlier glogs for some info today, and
all the photos are back! They all have a 'Proudly hosted on PhotoBucket'
label, but at least they are there. Anyone know the back story behind this?
I wonder when the pics became available again?

At any rate, it's very nice to be able to have pix on my earlier glogs again.

Later: Found an article online that details the situation. Don't know how
long the photos will be up for, if I don't sign up. Interesting.

It takes a little setup, but using Amazon Web Services, you could do your own photo serving. Very low monthly fee based on usage. There are various ways to do that kind of thing, but this is the cheapest and most reliable one I'm aware of. I'd be happy to help anyone set it up if there's interest.

PaulG · Nov 21, 2018

internationalfish said:
It takes a little setup, but using Amazon Web Services, you could do your own photo serving. Very low monthly fee based on usage. There are various ways to do that kind of thing, but this is the cheapest and most reliable one I'm aware of. I'd be happy to help anyone set it up if there's interest.

I have been using the Extreme Membership and just uploading
my photos right to THP for awhile, so no problem for now.

Thanks for the tip.

internationalfish · Nov 21, 2018

Sure thing.

b3rnd · Nov 22, 2018

SpeakPolish said:
Did anyone breed the Violet and White phenols together? Would be interesting if there were mixed coloration

PaulG said:
No. This is the first year for the violet coloration. The plants
the violet pods came from (not F6P) were all grown from
white pod seeds, so go figure. As it is, some plants produce
a few white and mostly violet pods, but it would be interesting
to try for a violet/white variegated.

Variegation, unfortunately, doesn't appear out of thin air. A mutation could occur randomly, sure. But really you'd need to introduce a gene for variegation through crossing it with a variegated pepper like the Fish. That's not something you should try before the strain is stable though because the recombination of heterozygous genes will shuffle the cards again. You'd ideally want to have as little gene variety as possible because you already know exactly which trait you want to pass on.

Besides, if I try to imagine these two pheno's combined in a variegated way, it kinda looks like the Pink Tiger in my brain. I'd say keep it going like this, the pepper is also pretty amazing.

Edit: Small correction of my previous posts (#787): When I said heterozygous, I meant homozygous. Small mistake but worth mentioning.

SpeakPolish · Nov 22, 2018

b3rnd said:
Variegation, unfortunately, doesn't appear out of thin air. A mutation could occur randomly, sure. But really you'd need to introduce a gene for variegation through crossing it with a variegated pepper like the Fish. That's not something you should try before the strain is stable though because the recombination of heterozygous genes will shuffle the cards again. You'd ideally want to have as little gene variety as possible because you already know exactly which trait you want to pass on.

Besides, if I try to imagine these two pheno's combined in a variegated way, it kinda looks like the Pink Tiger in my brain. I'd say keep it going like this, the pepper is also pretty amazing.

Edit: Small correction of my previous posts (#787): When I said heterozygous, I meant homozygous. Small mistake but worth mentioning.

Then how did the fish and pink tiger come to be? Mutations do naturally occur, also it might be a more likely chance since the Pink tiger is about half PDN.