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Home made nutrient solution

S

sniken

I've just mixed my very first coco formula for chili peppers. The grow formulation looks like this:

N   207
K   242
P   30
Mg  45
Ca  196
S   63
Fe  5.2
Zn  0.226
B   0.226
Cu  0.063
Mo  0.033
Na  4.5
Si  19
Cl  7.0
Mn  0.50
 

This includes the salts from my tap, which is pretty soft at 25 ppm Ca. I made 1 litre of concentrate of A:
Yara Calcinit (Ca(NO3)2): 89.92g 
 
Part B looks like this (grams to the right)

Monoammonium Phosphate   NH4H2PO4       1.85
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom) MgSO4.7H2O   13.76
Agsil 16h                               7.75
Iron EDDHA FeEDDHA                      5.56
Yara Kristalon Plus NPK 8-3-27         83.16

 
So K and the micros come from the Kristalon Plus, which limits the amount of fine tuning but it's way more practical than buying bulk micronutrients. I may be a bit low on B, but we'll see how it goes. I ended up with a NO3:NH4+ ratio of 1:0.06, although I would have liked it a bit higher for pH stability. 
 
Dilluted 1:100, the calculated EC is 1.8 according to Hydrobuddy. I have only mixed half strength so far, which came out at EC 1.1. Not quite sure what this means. 
 
The formulation is based on Hoagland, but I've also been looking at what GH and Canna do with their coco formulations. The commercial nutes are too low in Ca in my opinion, and I've struggled with Ca deficiency in the past using Hesi. The commercial nutrients also boost Fe for coco, and of course P and K for bloom. I may be a bit low on P here, but my thought was that fresh coco has a lot of P already. Commercial coco nutes range from 40 to 55 for veg and 70 to 100 for bloom. The problem is I get too much N from the Kristalon if I up the P. 
 
I'm not quite sure what to do for a bloom formulation. If I try to up the P and K I get this:
N   240
K   307
P   65
Mg  60
S   84
 
So this will be a third 1l bottle of 1:100 concentrate:

Monoammonium Phosphate NH4H2PO4        10.00
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom) MgSO4.7H2O    4.10
Yara Kristalon Plus NPK 8-3-27         25.54

 
And this is likely way to much nitrogen. Commercial nutes are in the 100 to 125 range for bloom. I may try it out on a few plants and run the veg nutes all the way on the rest. I could also just use the bottle of Hesi PK 13/14 I already have.
 
I did get some sediments in the B bottle. Anyone got an idea what that could be? Next time I will add one ingredient at a time and see when this happens. Feel free to comment or suggest changes, particularly on the bloom part.
 
 
Haha, sorry man but there's just nothing to say except go for it.
 
I read this paper recently: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09670261003754577
about a systematic way to formulate the ideal mediums for in-vitro plant growth, and the experimental design and analysis they do with factorials is absolutely insane. I really think the only way to evaluate your fert is to do controlled experiments. Please report back in!
 
All that said, it looks good to me. How did you decide on that level of Zinc? seems high to me maybe.
 
Gorizza said:
Haha, sorry man but there's just nothing to say except go for it.
 
I read this paper recently: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09670261003754577
about a systematic way to formulate the ideal mediums for in-vitro plant growth, and the experimental design and analysis they do with factorials is absolutely insane. I really think the only way to evaluate your fert is to do controlled experiments. Please report back in!
 
All that said, it looks good to me. How did you decide on that level of Zinc? seems high to me maybe.
Click to expand...
 
I'll check it out. I have to say I didn't go extremely deep into this. I found the original Steiner papers and and started reading up on antagonists and whatnot before I gave up. There are just too many variables so I believe more in trial and error. Even nutrients that should be crap according to some Mulder's chart turn out to work fine, as it seems plants are very good at adapting to various nutrient levels. So yeah, I based the profile on Hoagland and found this:
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/31/7/1119.abstract
Which indicates optimum N 210 ppm and K 234 ppm for peak production and pungency of jalapeños in sand culture. 
 
Zn is very high compared to Hoagland, but that's what I got in the Yara Kristalon Plus. AN Sensi coco and GH coco are both higher though, so I think it should be ok. I'm quite low on Mo and Mn compared to the commercial nutes. Time will tell if this is an issue.
 
The plants like the nutes so far. I started these from seeds in May. At first I thought I'd compare the results with Hesi but when I left for vacation I didn't bother with multiple reservoirs. I mixed 30 ml per 10l for an EC of around 0.9 in a 50l reservior with a small circulation pump. I mixed low strength since I wasn't sure how the plants would fare, and evaporation over 3 weeks could be an issue. Drip to waste, 4 times a week.
 
This is from June 15: Strains: Brown Bhutla SLP (semillas.de), 2x Habanero Caribbean Red (Fatalii)  and 2x Carolina Reaper (RFC)
 

 
And this is today, July 24 just after repotting. There is one reaper in the back, together with three older plants in larger pots. 
 
 
I admire your dedication. The details given are impressive but you would need someone with a botany degree to break down these numbers for you. If these numbers are new uncharted territory then you really need to do a controlled study on the effects. Trial and error based on basically, an educated guess.. There are some very intelligent professionals on this site though that may be able to help you. Good luck and keep us posted!
 
Edmick said:
I admire your dedication. The details given are impressive but you would need someone with a botany degree to break down these numbers for you. If these numbers are new uncharted territory then you really need to do a controlled study on the effects. Trial and error based on basically, an educated guess.. There are some very intelligent professionals on this site though that may be able to help you. Good luck and keep us posted!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks :) Yeah, this is far from a controlled study. There are just too many variables for my tiny grow space.. The only conclusion so far is that the plants that got Hesi nutes for the first two weeks are slightly taller than the ones that got my nutes all the way through.The Reaper and Habanero that got Hesi the first two weeks are 45cm and 47cm tall respectively. The numbers for my nutes are 41 and 42. Perhaps I started a bit hard with EC 1.1 for the young plants. The Hesi grow formula is organic so I can't get an EC reading, but I feed 10ml/10l for young plants (label says 50ml/10l).
 
I'll try to do a side by side comparison next time around. For now it will be interesting to see if I get the typical deficiencies I've seen with Hesi in late bloom and fruiting. I used to get both Ca and Mg deficiency symptoms. My nute mix is pretty standard really, apart from the high level of Fe and addition of Si. 
 
I've been hand watering since the previous update, up to once every 2 days when the pots get light. I've flushed once with tap water and increased the nutes to EC 1.4. I went away for four days last week and when I came back the pots were bone dry. I guess this is what stressed them enough to start flowering early.
 
What I'm more concerned about is the appearance of my habaneros. I sprayed with epsom salt thinking this is Mg deficiency. What do you guys think? 
 
Plant 1 on the left has minor symptoms. Plant 2 is getting pretty ugly:

 
Plant 1:

 
Plant 1 canopy:

 
Plant 2: 

 
Plant 2 canopy:

 
Plant 2, older leaf in canopy:

 
 
 
 
 
I chucked one of the Habaneros, I think it had a fungal/viral infection. My other plants are doing ok, not great. New growth is very wrinkly and some leaves are curling up. It could be due to water and/or drought stress since I've been out on the weekends etc. 
 
When I get around to it, I'll run a side-by-side comparison with Hesi and put them all on drippers. 
 
Anyway, I've changed up the recipe a little to see if it helps with the leaf curl. I upped P and Mg and lowered Fe back to normal levels. I found out that Fe chelate reacts with the Agsil causing sediments, so this time I have a 3-part mix with Agsil and MAP in a C bottle at 1:250 concentration.
 
 
N   215
K   242
P   47
Mg  70
Ca  196
S   96
Fe  2.0
Zn  0.226
B   0.226
Cu  0.063
Mo  0.033
Na  4.5
Si  18
Cl  7.0
Mn  0.50
 
 
 
Ares Schizas said:
Good work there! Are there any progress updates?

Just curious... How much did all these chemicals cost?
Click to expand...
 
Hi, sorry for the lack of updates. I think the problems I had stem from an aphid attack I had. I tossed out the reapers since the leaves kept getting brown spots and falling off. The habanero and brown bhutlah kept on producing until I killed them off about a month ago.
 
So yeah, I'm happy with the results and I'll continue using this solution for my coco pots. 
 
Cost: 100l of nutrients at EC=1.8 is about $2.5. Without Agsil the cost would be around $2. Compare that to 100 l of Hesi, which I would pay around $10 for here in Norway.
 
sniken said:
 
The commercial nutes are too low in Ca in my opinion, and I've struggled with Ca deficiency in the past using Hesi.
Click to expand...
 
So you tried the new one bottle Hesi coco with the NPK being:
 
3-4-5
 
I am currently testing the Hesi coco fertilizer for my few chilis using rainwater and i dont see any calcium related problems in the new leaves so far.
 
My best coco coir fertilizer i have used have been the Ghe floramicro/floramato combo and it is not intended specially for coco coir, but it can be used with it and i have had great results using it thus far.
 
You chili pictures above looks kind of like they are getting too much fertilizer and they dont like it.
 
Chilidude said:
 
So you tried the new one bottle Hesi coco with the NPK being:
 
3-4-5
 
I am currently testing the Hesi coco fertilizer for my few chilis using rainwater and i dont see any calcium related problems in the new leaves so far.
 
My best coco coir fertilizer i have used have been the Ghe floramicro/floramato combo and it is not intended specially for coco coir, but it can be used with it and i have had great results using it thus far.
 
You chili pictures above looks kind of like they are getting too much fertilizer and they dont like it.
Click to expand...
 
You might be right, that they got too much fertilizer. I experimented with different EC levels, and found the plants were happiest in the 0.8-1.0 range. At 0.6 I started seeing signs of nitrogen deficiency.
 
I think the Ca deficiency is related to the low levels of Ca in my tap, which is around 20-25 ppm. In the Netherlands they get their water from the ground, and I suspect their nutes are designed to be mixed with hard water. Hesi doesn't list the chemical composition, but there is no way they can make a 1:200 one-part nutrient with Ca levels that are in the Hoagland range. 
 
I used the full range of Hesi nutes, from Hesi TNT to Hesi Coco 3-4-5 with enzyme, root complex, PK, flower boost and SuperVit following the nutrient schedule suggested by Kent chili garden. They don't mention anything about RO water, so I'm sure they're using tap water with high Ca content as well:  http://kentchilligarden.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=5
 
DWCSchedule.jpg

 
 
Edit: I just saw you're using rainwater. I'd be interested to see how this goes for you. 
 
There is hesi coco for hard water and for soft water. I have the soft water version of the stuff.

As for the Ghe floramicro/mato combo i find the EC number of 1.6 produced the best results in the growing season inside the greenhouse.
 
solid7 said:
You need to use RO water for hydroponics. If you don't, your total dissolved solids will be too high, and you're defeating yourself from the start.
Click to expand...
 
I disagree. As long as you have an analysis of your water source you can account for the dissolved solids in the tap water. Several shops sell nutrients such as Hesi with a note saying it is designed for tap water. I got a good deal on Greenhouse Powder Feeding once, and only later discovered it has no Ca whatsoever. The same company sells chelated Ca as an additive if your tap water is low on Ca.
 
sniken said:
I disagree. As long as you have an analysis of your water source you can account for the dissolved solids in the tap water. Several shops sell nutrients such as Hesi with a note saying it is designed for tap water. I got a good deal on Greenhouse Powder Feeding once, and only later discovered it has no Ca whatsoever. The same company sells chelated Ca as an additive if your tap water is low on Ca.
Click to expand...
Specifically in that case, I would agree with you. Just wanted to make sure that it was understood. Many people begin their foray into hydro with tap water, and it produces frustration.

Carry on. :)
 
Chilidude said:
There is hesi coco for hard water and for soft water. I have the soft water version of the stuff.

As for the Ghe floramicro/mato combo i find the EC number of 1.6 produced the best results in the growing season inside the greenhouse.
Click to expand...
 
I have the soft water version too. 
 
Have you checked out Fatalii's chili nutes by the way? The shipping costs didn't make it worthwhile for me, but I see you're in Finland.
 
solid7 said:
Specifically in that case, I would agree with you. Just wanted to make sure that it was understood. Many people begin their foray into hydro with tap water, and it produces frustration.

Carry on. :)
Click to expand...
 
Yes, I see your point though. Water quality varies immensely so it's a bit irresponsible I think for Hesi to sell their nutes "for tap" without even stating the Ca contents on their bottles. That said, I had great results with their TNT complex for growth. It's just in bloom I ran into trouble.
 
sniken said:
It's just in bloom I ran into trouble.
Click to expand...
I've been a controversial figure around here, in past times, for suggesting that grow formulas were usually incorrect, and that bloom formulas were altogether unnecessary. I won't get into that all over again, but I'd encourage you to do a "grow" only grow, side-by-side with all of the other rigamaroll that cannabis growers like to frustrate themseleves with. See what your results are.
.
You may find that being overly scientific about it creates a marginally better result. You may also find that the margins aren't justifiable. Again, I just encourage you, based on what I've already done myself...
.
I am not a believer in "bloom" formulas, for very specific reasons.
 
sniken said:
 
I have the soft water version too. 
 
Have you checked out Fatalii's chili nutes by the way? The shipping costs didn't make it worthwhile for me, but I see you're in Finland.
Click to expand...
 
I am sure that the Fatalii chili nutes are fine and all, but they are also way too expensive to use so i have not tried them yet. I rather stick with the Ghe floramicro/floramato combo that is way more cheaper to use and have proven results from many growing seasons.
 
 
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