indoor Hello and question regarding indoor temps

Hi, this seems like a knowledgeable forum : )
 
If this was asked prior or is in the wrong place then feel free to move it.
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I've tried growing chili plants on a window sill previously, they seemed to do okay and grew beautiful flowers that I tried to hand pollinate to no avail as they dropped and no pepper fruits developed.
 
So entering the dark season I've gotten a bit more serious and have read lots and created an 80cm square and around 150cm high enclosed space with ventilation and two 75w grow LEDs. It's a simple hydro setup with peat and vermiculite as the medium. (I found the idea here: https://gabeshydroponics.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/tomatoes-and-chillis-grown-in-hempy-buckets/ )  (I live in a rather small flat and there's nowhere that a bright light wouldn't be very annoying).
 
My query regards the air temps where the plants are. Right now I have two jalapeno-looking red pepper plants (I got the seeds from friends who have a garden and weren't sure of what the variety is called) that are fairly small and just transplanted from soil-on-a-windowsill. They haven't begun flowering. I hope they'll live. In the FAQ there's :
"Peppers love warm temperatures. Optimal range is 65-90 degree Fahrenheit."
 
The room this enclosure is in has an ambient temp of 20C (68F) and with the two LEDs running it gets to about 23C (73F) inside the enclosure. I have the option to try a say 250W HPS light instead, which will generate some extra heat, and I was wondering whether you think that might be appropriate or overkill/unneccesary?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
(P.s, I've started trying to germinate a round of purple cayenne seeds meant for this setup, if that makes a difference)
 
 
 

Go with the 250w light. Either MH or HPS will do though I prefer HPS myself. Peppers will grow at 65o but will not likely produce much of anything. Temps in the range of 80o - 95o are more applicable to a productive plant. Humidity is another factor that will play a huge roll in flower drop.
 
 

Hello and welcome to the forum. There is some excellent pepper knowledge here. Enjoy.

!

Current ~600W LED grower in 1.2m×1.2m space here.
 
I wouldn't switch to an HPS for the simple reason that you ought to get less out of 250W HPS in terms of usable PAR as compared to your 150W LED, assuming your LEDs are good of course. Consistent 23°C should be just fine for your plants, I would not worry at that temperature, but you could take steps to increase the heat retention even more (e.g. add some reflectors). But I'm also a LED guy and not a huge fan of HPS. You'll get different answers from the LED and HPS crowd.
 
You say that you live in a small flat and don't like the light pollution. Have you looked at investing in a grow tent? For example, the HOMEbox HomeLab 80 would be of the exact size you require (but HOMEbox is far from the only brand out there). You'll both increase (drastically) the PAR the plants receive from your lights (due to wall reflection) as well as retain quite a bit more of heat that way, while keeping light pollution (and noise) at bay. They aren't that price prohibitive either, but that depends on your budget of course.

Thanks all for your replies and welcomes!
 
Capcom: Ah, then lack of humidity might have been the downfall of the window sill flowers.  A higher temperature equals a higher humidity potential so a HPS seems like a good idea for its reported effectiveness at bloom (and the dual ones are supposed to be pretty ok during growth) as well as the additional heat it will generate.
 
Ghost: Interesting different perspective. Reflectors..hmm, well, I actually acquired a relative to the HomeLab, so good advice : )  (I can't imagine even these LEDs sitting in the open (closets are cold, stuffy, full of various debris) somewhere on my 43m2 and a HPS would be even worse. Not to mention the cats..)
Its' pretty reflective on the inside and the LEDs do output some heat but not a whole lot compared to a HPS from what I read. I like that they draw less power overall as I pay for power but if I need to find other ways of upping the temps inside..  apparently a 400W HPS bulb is about the same price as a 250W one : ) I'd need to get better sunglasses.
 
 

Yes, beware of cats, mine set my indoor grow back to square one when they ate my plants because I had the grow tent door open with a space heater blowing into the tent. I'm gonna be using a ceramic heat emitter normally used for reptile habitats with a dimmer control to limit the heat output and a thermostat. I can let you know how it works out in about a week.

chelicerae said:

Thanks all for your replies and welcomes!
 
Capcom: Ah, then lack of humidity might have been the downfall of the window sill flowers.  A higher temperature equals a higher humidity potential so a HPS seems like a good idea for its reported effectiveness at bloom (and the dual ones are supposed to be pretty ok during growth) as well as the additional heat it will generate.
 
Ghost: Interesting different perspective. Reflectors..hmm, well, I actually acquired a relative to the HomeLab, so good advice : )  (I can't imagine even these LEDs sitting in the open (closets are cold, stuffy, full of various debris) somewhere on my 43m2 and a HPS would be even worse. Not to mention the cats..)
Its' pretty reflective on the inside and the LEDs do output some heat but not a whole lot compared to a HPS from what I read. I like that they draw less power overall as I pay for power but if I need to find other ways of upping the temps inside..  apparently a 400W HPS bulb is about the same price as a 250W one : ) I'd need to get better sunglasses.
 
 

Click to expand...

 
Pepper plants are not photoperiodic so the same light that you choose to grow with will also be ok when the plant decides to flower, which they will in the right conditions no matter what light you are using. Heat output is the positive byproduct of the HPS and the new double ended lamps are supposed to be the cats meow. Careful about going to big on your HPS output. 400w is really large. I run a 1000w for a 110 sq ft room and can grow plants in any corner of it. And you cant go back and put a 250w bulb in a ballast rated for a 400w. Research your needs and make good choices. I would go with 2 600w setups if I were to do it all over again.
 

chelicerae said:

Thanks all for your replies and welcomes!
 
Capcom: Ah, then lack of humidity might have been the downfall of the window sill flowers.  A higher temperature equals a higher humidity potential so a HPS seems like a good idea for its reported effectiveness at bloom (and the dual ones are supposed to be pretty ok during growth) as well as the additional heat it will generate.
 
Ghost: Interesting different perspective. Reflectors..hmm, well, I actually acquired a relative to the HomeLab, so good advice : )  (I can't imagine even these LEDs sitting in the open (closets are cold, stuffy, full of various debris) somewhere on my 43m2 and a HPS would be even worse. Not to mention the cats..)
Its' pretty reflective on the inside and the LEDs do output some heat but not a whole lot compared to a HPS from what I read. I like that they draw less power overall as I pay for power but if I need to find other ways of upping the temps inside..  apparently a 400W HPS bulb is about the same price as a 250W one : ) I'd need to get better sunglasses.
 
 

Click to expand...

 
I would be a bit sceptical towards increasing the humidity. It is true that very dry air can cause issues, but this is an unusual edge case. If you increase the humidity you can quickly experience other issues. For one, the leaves can get edema when transpiration does not match root water uptake. Further, surface fungi and rot can spread easier. Over watering can be expected to cause larger issues since transpiration is impaired.
 
Yes, HPS outputs more "heat". Do keep in mind though that this is an equivalent statement to saying that HPS are less efficient. You can't have both. Either you waste energy and get more heat, or you waste less energy and get less heat. It's a zero sum game in the end. The most ideal solution is to increase the brightness and isolation of your grow space until you have good temperatures. In your case I would acquire another led panel. But again, I'm biased since that is my area.
 
I would however like to state an open question to users here: Do you consider 23°C (74°F) a too low temperatures for chilis?
 

CAPCOM said:

 
Pepper plants are not photoperiodic so the same light that you choose to grow with will also be ok when the plant decides to flower, which they will in the right conditions no matter what light you are using. Heat output is the positive byproduct of the HPS and the new double ended lamps are supposed to be the cats meow. Careful about going to big on your HPS output. 400w is really large. I run a 1000w for a 110 sq ft room and can grow plants in any corner of it. And you cant go back and put a 250w bulb in a ballast rated for a 400w. Research your needs and make good choices. I would go with 2 600w setups if I were to do it all over again.
 

Click to expand...

 
Take note here. This is an important point that many people miss. Photoperiod is not the way of the pepper plant! It doesn't care at all.
 
I'm surprised by your corner grow statement. That's equivalent to 145W on my 16 square feet. That, plus a room with non-ideal reflections and I really don't expect substantial grow in the corners. Are you meaning that the plants survive? Because they are surely very light starved, no? I can't see them as being very productive at such a low light intensity!
 
Heat output a positive byproduct? Why? It impacts how close the lights can get to your plants. You can always add heat and isolate your growing area better. Too much heat and you waste both energy and need to vent it out to not cook them.

SwedishGhost said:

 
I would be a bit sceptical towards increasing the humidity. It is true that very dry air can cause issues, but this is an unusual edge case. If you increase the humidity you can quickly experience other issues. For one, the leaves can get edema when transpiration does not match root water uptake. Further, surface fungi and rot can spread easier. Over watering can be expected to cause larger issues since transpiration is impaired.
 
Yes, HPS outputs more "heat". Do keep in mind though that this is an equivalent statement to saying that HPS are less efficient. You can't have both. Either you waste energy and get more heat, or you waste less energy and get less heat. It's a zero sum game in the end. The most ideal solution is to increase the brightness and isolation of your grow space until you have good temperatures. In your case I would acquire another led panel. But again, I'm biased since that is my area.
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Heat output a positive byproduct? Why? It impacts how close the lights can get to your plants. You can always add heat and isolate your growing area better. Too much heat and you waste both energy and need to vent it out to not cook them.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the warning in regards to humidity. I know from keeping rainforest bird spiders that it can be a fine line. I will certainly attempt to read up on flower drop and temp/RH.
 
A HPS will draw a certain amount of power and output it into primarily light and heat. Since I shall need both for the next 6 months at least I don't view the heat output as a problem but rather the opposite. (As long as it doesn't get out of hand even with the 250W, that is). 23C is currently with the rather effective fan off and both 75W LEDs (pretty good reviews) on. I keep the fan on periodically, it primarily affects humidity acc to a probe.
 
 
 

CAPCOM said:

 
Pepper plants are not photoperiodic so the same light that you choose to grow with will also be ok when the plant decides to flower, which they will in the right conditions no matter what light you are using. Heat output is the positive byproduct of the HPS and the new double ended lamps are supposed to be the cats meow. Careful about going to big on your HPS output. 400w is really large. I run a 1000w for a 110 sq ft room and can grow plants in any corner of it. And you cant go back and put a 250w bulb in a ballast rated for a 400w. Research your needs and make good choices. I would go with 2 600w setups if I were to do it all over again.
 

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info in regards to sizes..400 might be a bit overkill. I've actually ordered a ballast that can take 250 and 400 because it received good reviews and some flexibility might be nice down the line.
 
Photoperiod seems to refer to the number of hours of light it gets and it's great to know it will produce flowers regardless. Have seen some users here report differences in plant structure between MH and HPS lights but I've taken your word for this dual HPS light being the cat's mrraow = ) Some debate appears on whether they need darkness at all but that's a moot point as I won't run a 250 or 400W HPS more than 18hrs I think.
 
I hope my transplants make it and that I can get some purple cayenne to germinate, I've certainly read up on a number of different recipes! This seems like a great forum.

​​

chelicerae said:

Thanks for the warning in regards to humidity. I know from keeping rainforest bird spiders that it can be a fine line. I will certainly attempt to read up on flower drop and temp/RH.
 
A HPS will draw a certain amount of power and output it into primarily light and heat. Since I shall need both for the next 6 months at least I don't view the heat output as a problem but rather the opposite. (As long as it doesn't get out of hand even with the 250W, that is). 23C is currently with the rather effective fan off and both 75W LEDs (pretty good reviews) on. I keep the fan on periodically, it primarily affects humidity acc to a probe.

Click to expand...

​Interesting hobby!
 
Yes, please be wary of the humidity. I discovered today that I have some blight in my tent, bacterial or fungi unclear, with my Padrón peppers acting up again in a way worse manner than I suspected. Almost all leaves have some browning spots and BLS (Bacterial Leaf Spot), due to the Xanthomonas bacteria, is of course my current worry. It's not clear yet but I can say one thing for certain: Humidity has not been my friend. The Padrón peppers are very prone to edema for some reason so it's no wonder bacteria/fungi like to gnaw on those water soaked leaves.

​If you do get BLS there's not much to do other than to remove all infected material, aerate/lower humidity, try compost tea/copper-based fungicides and pray to the Gods of hot pods that you get it suppressed. There's no cure.
 

chelicerae said:

Thanks for the info in regards to sizes..400 might be a bit overkill. I've actually ordered a ballast that can take 250 and 400 because it received good reviews and some flexibility might be nice down the line.

Photoperiod seems to refer to the number of hours of light it gets and it's great to know it will produce flowers regardless. Have seen some users here report differences in plant structure between MH and HPS lights but I've taken your word for this dual HPS light being the cat's mrraow = ) Some debate appears on whether they need darkness at all but that's a moot point as I won't run a 250 or 400W HPS more than 18hrs I think.

I hope my transplants make it and that I can get some purple cayenne to germinate, I've certainly read up on a number of different recipes! This seems like a great forum.

Click to expand...

Not directed towards me, but I got some points still.
​
​There's definitely support in academia for morphological changes due to spectrum differences. LEDs are most affected by this since they try to tailor the spectrum towards efficient photosynthesis (blue/red) while experimenting (differently for different manufacturers) with "full spectrum", i.e. addition of small green/IR to supplement even if not photosynthetic.

Darkness is absolutely not necessary, but it seems to increase starch and sugar concentrations somewhat (and therefore growth and pod production) to keep a few hours in dark. It's not fully clear why, but it's likely related to a pathway being saturated (not a photoperiod cycle!). However, you still get increased productiveness up to 16-20 hours full artificial light or so. I do 18/6 as my cycle.
​
​Purple cayenne? Nice one! I got two specimens in my collection. One is huge and oh-so-beautiful and the other... not even close. It's the variety which I had the largest problem getting fruitful seedlings from. Only 2/8 survived (worst yet) and one of those, the one barely hanging on today, on  ​intense life support during the early days when it was very touch and go. So be careful. "Damping off" was seen in numbers here. You might want to be extra vigilant if you got similar genetics to me; Seems extremely non-resistant to fungal/bacterial pathogens.

SwedishGhost said:

 
Take note here. This is an important point that many people miss. Photoperiod is not the way of the pepper plant! It doesn't care at all.
 
I'm surprised by your corner grow statement. That's equivalent to 145W on my 16 square feet. That, plus a room with non-ideal reflections and I really don't expect substantial grow in the corners. Are you meaning that the plants survive? Because they are surely very light starved, no? I can't see them as being very productive at such a low light intensity!
 
Heat output a positive byproduct? Why? It impacts how close the lights can get to your plants. You can always add heat and isolate your growing area better. Too much heat and you waste both energy and need to vent it out to not cook them.

Click to expand...

 

 

 
I dont grow indoors all year long. I start plants in Dec/Jan and grow til plant out around Mothers day.
Heat out put is a positive byproduct? ABSOLUTELY. I can thermoregulate by running 4- 6 hour cycles.
Screwed up day/night cycle? peppers dont care.
 

To the forum! It's really great, and just bursting with fantastic people with even fantasticer info and ideas!

If you are planning on growing the plants to fill maturity under lights, I don't know enough to help you, I'm afraid.

However!
20-23 degrees is pretty okay temp for growing chillies. The only issue you may find is getting ripe fruit, as it will probably be a bit slow. Having said that, I still had fruit ripening March this year (I'm southern hemisphere), and temps would have been around there, even a bit less.

All the literature says that chillies are best suited at 25-30 degrees, so if you want to heat them up, you don't need too much more.

I started my grow indoors this year, in a shelf with slightly more than 2ft floor space under a 20W 1800 lumens Daylight (6000K) LED Batten. Cost me 40 bucks from the hardware store. Quite good efficiency, I've had seedlings under there since 1st July, with very minimal issues and steady, albeit slightly slower, growth. But I'm not growing them to fruit inside, so I don't know what is needed there.
Point being, don't need that much to get them to grow.
Temps is interesting. In my little set-up, temps ranged from 10 to 18 degrees, usually hovering around 15-16 during the day and 12 in the night. It was like that since I started, although it has probably gin up a bit since Spring started. But for a good two month at least, they were growing fairly well at less than 20 degrees. (You can check out my glog for details and photos). But again, I'm not fruiting them indoors, and I doubt that they would at this temps.

TL;DR You'd be surprised at how little is actually needed both light and temperature wise to get plants growing nicely. Obviously, the more the better they do, but you can get away with the bare minimum, which is optimal for thin wallets like mine.

From the sound of the options you're considering, I'd say that you'll be fine and shouldn't have too much to worry about.

Good Luck!

Chiles are day neutral
 
 


What is day neutral?






day-neutral plant. A plant that flowers regardless of the length of the period of light it is exposed to. Rice, corn, and the cucumber are day-neutral plants. Compare long-day plant, short-day plant. See more at photoperiodism.




 

I got the150 watt ceramic heat emitter today. Doesn't put out quite as much heat as I was hoping, but it does raise the temp in my 3 foot by 3 foot grow tent by 12f. I may just add another one if it just isn't enough to keep the temps up.

Many thanks for the new replies! SG: Cheers for the explanation of what intermittent darkness does, as well as the information about different spectra of light.
Capcom: That's a nice setup! I recognize the orange.. I've installed a 250W HPS now and temps are ranging between 24 and 28C.
TBG: That sounds like a good setup and it's nice to hear chili plants can do okay within a range of parameters.
 
Had some trouble getting the seeds to germinate, or rather to keep the coffee filters moist, in the end I put two clay pot trays together, seeds between two folded and wet coffee filters inside, taped to the "ceiling" then I put the two trays on a heatmat and the PC produced a tap root in less than a week.
 
The germinated seeds I put in a small greenhouse, stone wool instead of soil in the vertical trays. Then I taped shut half of the ventilation holes because I read the tiny seedlings as well as germinated seeds like it humid/moist. Well, they emerged and looked happy for a week... and then I noticed white spots on the stone wool. I'd had the greenhouse in the window and now I removed its cover and put it in my grow tent with the HPS and a fan gently swaying the seedlings. The spots are almost gone now but the seedlings look like this:
 
which I read can be caused by A too many nutrients B too few nutrients and C fungus. What do you think?
 
https://1drv.ms/i/s!AlCoUQ0jvInBgYQob0ipupCfEcaAVw
 
(The one on the left had its seed shell stuck to it and I foolishly tried to remove it and the leaves were "trimmed"..we'll see if it lives, then again that goes for all of them. One of the cats got to another as the tray was unsupervised for .3 seconds but I may have been able to save it. They mostly ignore cables and other things but they absolutely love plants and pots with soil)