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fermenting Dealing with acid in a mash before fermentation

I'm thinking about playing around with commercial pepper mashes as a base for a ferment but they either come with a ton of salt or with 10% distilled vinegar added. I found a thread on Reddit that discussed if the pH of the mash is 3 or below, fermentation won't happen (or will be terribly slow). But I don't know what number actually works. Anyone here have an idea what pH is needed to keep the Lacto happy initially?
 
One thing you might want to consider,is you might get a volcano when you mix acid and alkaline. I’m thinking back to elementary school when we played with vinegar and baking soda. But I could be wrong with acid+alkaline liquids.


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PtMD989 said:
One thing you might want to consider,is you might get a volcano when you mix acid and alkaline. Im thinking back to elementary school when we played with vinegar and baking soda. But I could be wrong with acid+alkaline liquids.


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Yep that's a good idea too
 
I would not do anything to alkalize the mash. If you do so you may risk encouraging the formation or growth of botulinum. You want your mash and your final product to be at least 4.6 or less ph for even the most basic safety. Most hot sauce producers shoot for products that are 3.5 or less ph.
 
 
AlfredW said:
I would not do anything to alkalize the mash. If you do so you may risk encouraging the formation or growth of botulinum. You want your mash and your final product to be at least 4.6 or less ph for even the most basic safety. Most hot sauce producers shoot for products that are 3.5 or less ph.
 
Final product sure, but that's going to be after the production of a bunch of lactic acid. If the mash is too acidic at the start, fermentation won't occur. 
 
jhc said:
I'm thinking about playing around with commercial pepper mashes as a base for a ferment but they either come with a ton of salt or with 10% distilled vinegar added. I found a thread on Reddit that discussed if the pH of the mash is 3 or below, fermentation won't happen (or will be terribly slow). But I don't know what number actually works. Anyone here have an idea what pH is needed to keep the Lacto happy initially?
 
if your goal is to have large scale fermentation operation using peppers, start with fresh peppers and do the fermentation yourself.  It's not that difficult.  Start with all fresh ingredients, lots of kimchee and sauerkraut makers do this all the time.  Same technique, different ingredients.   
 
The commercial mashes/ferments/etc are made for large scale commercial customers who want to blend some 'ghost peppers which are the hottest peppers in the world' ...not...​ into their item, or other large scale processors who use literally tons of chiles in their food processing.  10% salt and vinegars added to the mashes are to prevent spoilage.  Once that high of a salt content  and/or vinegar content are in the mix, the fermentation will stop.  Some have been fermented to a certain stage and then other stuff added to prevent spoilage.  Others have had no fermentation.  Ground up chiles with vinegar are a 'mash'.  Do not assume that the word 'mash' equates to fermentation!  'MASH' is also just a description of consistency.   
 
Most of those commercial mixes are made with the intent of shipping long distances.  They have to be able to ship (10) 55gal drums of cayenne mash from n'awlins'  to Fargo in August on a slow boat up the Mississippi without any spoilage....   
 
You should be able to find unfermented, unsalted, non-vinegar chiles somewhere...but it may be a long search.  And it may entail purchasing frozen product.  Frozen chiles can be fermented just fine~~~
 
 
Check everything out, and Have Fun!!
SL
 
I suppose I should be more clear. I'm not doing large scale anything! (yet). This will be my first fermented sauce. I would have preferred to start last summer but I knew I was moving and didn't want to have to transport a bunch of stinky airlock jars in my car lol. The only reason I'm going to try this method is because I want to try something beyond what I can get fresh in the supermarket and I dont see any way I'm getting anything fresh besides orange habs, serrano, and green jalapeno this time of year.
 
I only found two suppliers so far that sold mashes at a reasonable price. Both sold large and medium scale versions that needed further processing and smaller quantities of pasteurized ready-to-eat. I wanted to start small and I went with the company that actually answered my questions via email, so I have 16 oz each of unfermented red jalapeno, red serrano, and cayenne mash, each with 10% vinegar, from Smokin J's Fiery Foods. The Jalapeno is going to go with reconstituted guajillo and maybe some peppadews and garlic +/- other stuff into a cooked "sorta-Sriracha/sorta-Mexican" style all purpose sauce. The cayenne and serrano are going to go with reconstituted chiplotles and maybe arbols, +/- other stuff, into a ferment. It's not ideal, but It's what I'm going to try right now. If it ends up a failure, that's ok as long as I learn something from it.
 
jhc said:
This will be my first fermented sauce. The only reason I'm going to try this method is because I want to try something beyond what I can get fresh in the supermarket and I dont see any way I'm getting anything fresh besides orange habs, serrano, and green jalapeno this time of year.
 
It's not ideal, but It's what I'm going to try right now. If it ends up a failure, that's ok as long as I learn something from it.
Best of luck with your first ferment. Don't forget, you could always do a couple of 'test runs' with store bought pods (habs, peños, etc.) at first, until you're sure you've got the hang of it. That way, you any 'mistakes' or adjustments you'd make won't be wasted on your "good" (home grown) pods
 
Many brew shops sell 80% lactic acid. Its used for pH adjustments in brewing. If you have a tester, it wont hurt a thing if you can get your water at least slightly acidic first. I just add a couple tbs of homemade kraut or kimchi juice but mainly just for the active lacto bacteria in it.
 
MikeUSMC said:
Best of luck with your first ferment. Don't forget, you could always do a couple of 'test runs' with store bought pods (habs, peños, etc.) at first, until you're sure you've got the hang of it. That way, you any 'mistakes' or adjustments you'd make won't be wasted on your "good" (home grown) pods
Wish I had homegrown pods. Everything I use is purchased. I'll see what I can do next summer, but new yard is pretty small and pretty shady. At least there seems to be a vibrant farmers market scene here so I'm hoping that's going to be the way to go.
 
ShowMeDaSauce said:
Many brew shops sell 80% lactic acid. Its used for pH adjustments in brewing. If you have a tester, it wont hurt a thing if you can get your water at least slightly acidic first. I just add a couple tbs of homemade kraut or kimchi juice but mainly just for the active lacto bacteria in it.
Was planning on using a sweet wine as the brine, in part as a sugar source, in part because wines are already somewhat acidic and it might help suppress some unwanted nasties. But my main problem is that my mash is already going to have vinegar in it and I'm worried about it being too acidic for the lacto to take off. I certainly don't want to add another acid to the mix.
 
jhc said:
Wish I had homegrown pods. Everything I use is purchased. I'll see what I can do next summer, but new yard is pretty small and pretty shady. At least there seems to be a vibrant farmers market scene here so I'm hoping that's going to be the way to go.
Able to rent from a community garden? Mine sets me back about 25 bucks for the year
 
Genetikx said:
Able to rent from a community garden? Mine sets me back about 25 bucks for the year
No idea though sounds cool.  Doesnt help that I'm a garden noob, cant just waltz in and make peppers happen I think.
 
PS - I lived in Chicago for 9 years, love that town.
 
jhc said:
No idea though sounds cool.  Doesnt help that I'm a garden noob, cant just waltz in and make peppers happen I think.
 
PS - I lived in Chicago for 9 years, love that town.
Gardening can be as easy as or as complicated as you want it to be. Try to find peppers or other plants that are low maintenance. Hopefully some knowledgeable THP members can recommend some easy to grow peppers. [emoji846]


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