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#1 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:06 PM

If I wash rinse and sanitize (star San ) my bottles, do I have to expand the step further and bake my bottles in the oven? Or am I good to go once I hot fill?

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#2 Edmick

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:14 PM

Speaking from a home brewers perspective, star san should be enough. I don't see it being any different in hot sauce making. I used star san for years brewing beer and never had an issue with infection. I would obviously clean the bottles thoroughly with hot water first though.



#3 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:15 PM

Thank you edmick

#4 sirex

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:45 PM

No you don't have to bake if you use Star San.

Never sacrifice flavor for heat.


#5 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:47 PM

No you don't have to bake if you use Star San.


Okay I didnt know for sure. I saw a few threads where people mentioned both, but in hotsauce 101 I didnt see it. Thank you

#6 sirex

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:51 PM

Honestly if it's just for me, I just pull a mason jar out of the dishwasher. But if it's for other people obviously sanitize.

Never sacrifice flavor for heat.


#7 Crispee-FL

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 06:10 PM

I do both because I like to hot pack my bottles.

#8 patrad

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 06:11 PM

I star san then hot pack



#9 tctenten

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 08:19 PM

Depends if you want to sterilize or sanitize. You are sanitizing the bottles, but not sterilizing them. Sanitizing is fine for brewing, not sure about hot sauce bottling.

#10 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 08:21 PM

Depends if you want to sterilize or sanitize. You are sanitizing the bottles, but not sterilizing them. Sanitizing is fine for brewing, not sure about hot sauce bottling.


If I am hot filling, wouldnt that sterilize the bottles anyway?

#11 tctenten

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 08:26 PM

I do not think so, but I could be 100% wrong.

It is my belief that the hot fill is to provide the seal after bottling and not provide sterilization.

Hopefully SL pops in and can add clarity.

#12 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 08:31 PM

You could also be 100% right.

If the purpose of flipping after hotfilling is to sterilize the caps, I would assume it would sterilize the bottle as well. But if I am wrong, then thats an easy fix: just pop em in the oven, all is well

#13 salsalady

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:42 PM

If I am hot filling, wouldnt that sterilize the bottles anyway?

Yes...but.....

 

 

....procedures for licensed processors are a little different.  Some commercial hot sauce makers do not wash/sanitize bottles before filling with (200F-ish) sauce.  The bottles are shipped to the processor in sealed boxes, opened and handled inside the processing facility.  

 

Instructions in Making Hot Sauce 101 take into account that the people making the sauces are Weekend Hot Sauce Warriors.  They may be using bottles that have been sitting in an opened box, maybe upright, outside, where birds might flit through the carport, gathering dust and spiders..  (...you get the idea~)....so Wash-Rinse-Sanitize is the best protocol for unlicensed processors. 

 

Sterilization options for bottles are- wash/rinse/...

bleach

StarSan(or similar)

bake

 

In both home and commercial applications, the INVERT portion sterilized the inside of the cap.  Most caps have a liner, which cannot be sanitized with bleach or similar.  Heat sterilization is the process for that. 

 

There are metal caps for woozies that can be boiling water bathed.  Slightly different procedure. 

 

The Hot Fill process also provides the vacuum seal necessary for shelf stable items.  It is the same as when using canning jars in a boiling water bath.  Product like peaches (which naturally have a good/low pH level) are put in the mason jar, the lid and ring ar applied then brought up to boiling (which heats the peaches AND the lid!  providing sterilization)

 

 

Sanitize-v-Sterilize-

 

Here's what my PA states-quoted from the PA review of Texas Creek BBQ sauce.  (BOLDS and italics by me~)

 

"--- 2011

Texas Creek Products

Attn: Ann -

-

-

-

 

Dear Ann,

In response to your recent request, we have reviewed your product formulation and process for Texas Creek BBQ Sauce in 12 oz. glass jars.

-

-

-

The recipe and processing parameters must be strictly adhered to; any deviations such as excess butter, insufficient blending, or inadequate heating may compromise the safety of this product. Based upon this information, we have determined that this product’s formulation as presented and processed is an acidified food. We recommend that this product be packed under strict pH control that follows the parameters stated in the formula and process.

 

Maximum Equilibrium pH * 3.70

Target Equilibrium pH 3.50

Least Sterilizing Value 180ºF for 2 minutes

Minimum Fill Temperature 180ºF

Fill Temperature Range 180-200ºF

Minimum Holding Time 2 minutes

*To be obtained as soon as possible after processing, and not to exceed 24 hours.

 

In addition, if a steam flow closure is not used, we would suggest a line inversion after filling to assist in providing sufficient heat to the headspace and seal area. The jar inversion effectively controls molds and yeasts that may be present on the inner surface of the lid and in the head space of the jar. A hold time of 18 seconds or longer at 180ºF (times must be rounded up to the next minute) will render the product free of vegetative microbial cells if a z value of 16ºF is utilized. Jars filled at 180ºF or above will normally take several minutes to cool significantly. -----

 

The process put together by Texas Creek Products should be adequate to provide for commercial sterility by eliminating yeasts, lactics and most molds. However, the process is not designed to eliminate a few very heat resistant species of mold. While these molds rarely cause a problem, sanitation becomes an important factor in controlling these organisms.

Therefore, it is important that you review 21 CFR part 110 which provides you with information concerning the regulations of the Current Good Manufacturing Practice in INSTITUTE OF AGRICULTURE AND NATURAL RESOURCES The Food Processing Center Manufacturing, Packing or Holding Human Food, and the acidified foods laws.

-

-

-

-

Any changes from the specified formulations 08/2010 and specified process 08/2010 would be a deviation and would require a new evaluation of this product. If you need further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely,

(Process Authority)"

 

 

I probably should put this in the original HS101 post, but I don't  want to start a whole "sanitation-v-sterilization" debate.  I'm not a scientist, I just follow directions.  Hot Fill/Invert/Hold...don't deviate from the recipe or process....= safe product.  Temp ranges and processing times stated in HS101 are for the weekend warriors who don't have super-accurate pH meters or thermometers.  Use the safety margins of getting the temp up to 195-200F, low pH, clean work space and equipment....

 

Hope this helps~

 

SL


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#14 sirex

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:44 PM

The sanitizer provides a sterile vessel for the sauce. Bringing the sauce w a pH below 4.2 ( most shoot for under 4 ) up to 180 provides an environment that will not allow the nasties to thrive. Put it in the bottle and flip ensures that the sauce covers all areas and the heat makes a sort of vacuum to " sterilize " the air.

Never sacrifice flavor for heat.


#15 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 09:53 PM

That does help , SL. Thank you so much. Hot fill/ /invert/hold + dont deviate from recipe / process = safe product

Edited by jbopbr, 07 February 2018 - 09:53 PM.


#16 jbopbr

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:06 PM

Also, quick question about orifice reducers: some came w/ my bottles and I went ahead and used them once I hot filled. Will this affect the seal in any way?

#17 patrad

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:14 PM

Depends if you want to sterilize or sanitize. You are sanitizing the bottles, but not sterilizing them. Sanitizing is fine for brewing, not sure about hot sauce bottling.

 

Sanitization = sterilization

 

Trust me as a brewer we don't want shit in our beer just as much as you dont want it in hot sauce. 

 

I'd argue that it's more important in beer making.  When you bottle beer it's not nearly as acidic or salty as hot sauce and more susceptible to bad bugs. 

 

In brewing there is a difference between "cleaning" and sanitization/sterilization.  There are many cleaning products for brewing equipment and bottles that don't sanitize.  A product like starsan is always the last step to sterilization. 



#18 salsalady

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:17 PM

jbop- also be aware that the above review was for a BBQ sauce which contains a lot of sugar and also butter which is a huge critical factor in commercially packed products.  Anything with meat or dairy has very strict processing.  That bbq sauce was the one that required a (shitttonne) of additional licensing for me and my facility.  Most of the other sauces have the simple hot fill/hold with a low pH, which is what most of the sauces people here on THP are working with.  Whether the sauces are low pH from fermentation or from the addition of acids (vinegar or citrus juices), they should not have meat/dairy.  But hopefully the quoted process and notes will help people understand "Hot Fill/Hold". 

 

SL

 

 

 

note-orifice reducers do not impact the HotFill/Hold process.  Heat transfers through to the cap etc. when inverted.  Just make sure to gently snug the cap onto the bottle.  I've noticed the O.R. holds the cap up a mm or so, and have had a couple bottles leak because I didn't snug down the cap on a sauce with a very low viscosity.  Make sure to gently but securely snug the cap onto the bottle.

 

I used to be able to get unlined caps to use with orifice reducers, but apparently they do not offer those any more and ship lined caps with all bottles.  No biggie, just a little bit of learning experience..  

 


Edited by salsalady, 07 February 2018 - 10:18 PM.

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#19 jhc

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 04:31 AM

Yes...but.....

 

 

....procedures for licensed processors are a little different.  Some commercial hot sauce makers do not wash/sanitize bottles before filling with (200F-ish) sauce.  The bottles are shipped to the processor in sealed boxes, opened and handled inside the processing facility.  

 

Instructions in Making Hot Sauce 101 take into account that the people making the sauces are Weekend Hot Sauce Warriors.  They may be using bottles that have been sitting in an opened box, maybe upright, outside, where birds might flit through the carport, gathering dust and spiders..  (...you get the idea~)....so Wash-Rinse-Sanitize is the best protocol for unlicensed processors. 

 

Sterilization options for bottles are- wash/rinse/...

bleach

StarSan(or similar)

bake

 

In both home and commercial applications, the INVERT portion sterilized the inside of the cap.  Most caps have a liner, which cannot be sanitized with bleach or similar.  Heat sterilization is the process for that. 

 

There are metal caps for woozies that can be boiling water bathed.  Slightly different procedure. 

 

The Hot Fill process also provides the vacuum seal necessary for shelf stable items.  It is the same as when using canning jars in a boiling water bath.  Product like peaches (which naturally have a good/low pH level) are put in the mason jar, the lid and ring ar applied then brought up to boiling (which heats the peaches AND the lid!  providing sterilization)

 

 

Sanitize-v-Sterilize-

 

Here's what my PA states-quoted from the PA review of Texas Creek BBQ sauce.  (BOLDS and italics by me~)

 

"--- 2011

Texas Creek Products

Attn: Ann -

-

-

-

 

Dear Ann,

In response to your recent request, we have reviewed your product formulation and process for Texas Creek BBQ Sauce in 12 oz. glass jars.

-

-

-

The recipe and processing parameters must be strictly adhered to; any deviations such as excess butter, insufficient blending, or inadequate heating may compromise the safety of this product. Based upon this information, we have determined that this product’s formulation as presented and processed is an acidified food. We recommend that this product be packed under strict pH control that follows the parameters stated in the formula and process.

 

Maximum Equilibrium pH * 3.70

Target Equilibrium pH 3.50

Least Sterilizing Value 180ºF for 2 minutes

Minimum Fill Temperature 180ºF

Fill Temperature Range 180-200ºF

Minimum Holding Time 2 minutes

*To be obtained as soon as possible after processing, and not to exceed 24 hours.

 

In addition, if a steam flow closure is not used, we would suggest a line inversion after filling to assist in providing sufficient heat to the headspace and seal area. The jar inversion effectively controls molds and yeasts that may be present on the inner surface of the lid and in the head space of the jar. A hold time of 18 seconds or longer at 180ºF (times must be rounded up to the next minute) will render the product free of vegetative microbial cells if a z value of 16ºF is utilized. Jars filled at 180ºF or above will normally take several minutes to cool significantly. -----

 

The process put together by Texas Creek Products should be adequate to provide for commercial sterility by eliminating yeasts, lactics and most molds. However, the process is not designed to eliminate a few very heat resistant species of mold. While these molds rarely cause a problem, sanitation becomes an important factor in controlling these organisms.

Therefore, it is important that you review 21 CFR part 110 which provides you with information concerning the regulations of the Current Good Manufacturing Practice in INSTITUTE OF AGRICULTURE AND NATURAL RESOURCES The Food Processing Center Manufacturing, Packing or Holding Human Food, and the acidified foods laws.

-

-

-

-

Any changes from the specified formulations 08/2010 and specified process 08/2010 would be a deviation and would require a new evaluation of this product. If you need further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely,

(Process Authority)"

 

 

I probably should put this in the original HS101 post, but I don't  want to start a whole "sanitation-v-sterilization" debate.  I'm not a scientist, I just follow directions.  Hot Fill/Invert/Hold...don't deviate from the recipe or process....= safe product.  Temp ranges and processing times stated in HS101 are for the weekend warriors who don't have super-accurate pH meters or thermometers.  Use the safety margins of getting the temp up to 195-200F, low pH, clean work space and equipment....

 

Hope this helps~

 

SL

Pretty obvious from this language that "sanitation" here does not refer to a process when bottling to kill nasties, it refers to the required level of cleanliness to prevent heat-resistant molds from even being a potential problem in the first place. Thus there is not "sanitation vs sterilization" debate at all... it's apples vs. oranges.

 

PS, as an actual scientist, I can say that once your "sterilized" bottles come out of the oven into even the cleanest commercial kitchen, they are no longer sterile. Plenty of mold spores in the air everywhere, so your sauce needs to be >180 when bottling because that's what ends up truly sterilizing the interior of the bottle and cap. I read a post a while back here that stated as long as your pH was low enough you didn't have to hot fill. That makes no sense if you have basic knowledge of microbiology. 



#20 tctenten

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 06:56 AM

 
Sanitization = sterilization
 
Trust me as a brewer we don't want shit in our beer just as much as you dont want it in hot sauce. 
 
I'd argue that it's more important in beer making.  When you bottle beer it's not nearly as acidic or salty as hot sauce and more susceptible to bad bugs. 
 
In brewing there is a difference between "cleaning" and sanitization/sterilization.  There are many cleaning products for brewing equipment and bottles that don't sanitize.  A product like starsan is always the last step to sterilization. 


Every article I have read points to sanitization DOES NOT equal sterilization. I am not a scientist or even close to an expert. Everything I have read says that sterilization is sanitation on steroids. It is taking sanitization one step forward .


Although...maybe I am reading #fakenews




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