Help with Root/Compaction/Fungal/Mold Problems....

Poiethis · Jun 17, 2018

Hello Again and Help Please!

I have 4 plants as a first year grower and 2 of them are dying very quickly and the other 2 seem to be flourishing. They've been getting the same nutes/water/TLC since I got them, the only difference is the nursery where they came from, species and age (I think). Below are some pics and the critical information. I don't know what the problem is, except possibly overwatering/nute burn/mildew/fungus related to the overwatering since I don't know what I'm doing.

The Reaper & Scorpion plants both came from a nursery(about 4 weeks ago) in 4.5" pots and both were pretty badly rootbound and had a little bit of green algae on the top. I repotted both in 5 gallon containers with MG all purpose potting soil and added a few tbsps of tomato food granules (I forget the brand name) something like 12-10-8. After about a week I started using MG liquid all purpose fertilizer about 1/2 strength. And close to full strength (1 tsp/gallon) every week and a half or so. They seemed to be doing well, but a few days ago after receiving about 2"+ of rain in 2 days I pruned a few of the larger leaves off to give the smaller/lower ones more light. The very next day the leaves started falling off (perfectly healthy green leaves) and continued. Today I ran out and got some Ecoscrap Organic and All Natural raised planting bed potting soil (the only decent looking soil @ the store) and repotted and thoroughly washed the roots. I did not add any nutes this time just in case I burned the crap out of them. The Habs & Thais have been treated the same way and are also in 5 gallon containers with MG soil/nutes, but seem to be doing great. I haven't pruned them (and don't plan on it) but I seriously doubt that had anything to do with the leaves and plant dying....

Any help or info will be GREATLY appreciated! Not much to do at this point except hope they don't die....

solid7 · Jun 17, 2018

Perfectly healthy leaves falling off is a classic sign of overwatering. And man, do those pots look wet...

I don't use Miracle Gro, but it really sounds like you're over-feeding, as well. The dead tops of your plants kinda tell me the same. Who suggested that feeding schedule to you, and why?

From what you've said so far, it sounds like you're simply loving them to death. I'd highly suggest that you not do anything at all to these plants for a couple of weeks, except MAYBE water them, if they completely dry out. And I sound like a broken record around here, but fish fertilizer is an excellent plant food for those who have a habit of overfeeding. It's incredibly forgiving. Salt based ferts, not so much... You may want to check out that option.

solid7 · Jun 17, 2018

Actually, having re-read this, I'm thinking that your raised bed "soil" probably isn't going to help your problem. Raised beds behave very differently from containers, and can get away with different parameters.
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Somebody else recently asked for help with a mix, and my advice - which was exactly the same, on account of me being a creature of habit - was that you can roll your own very cheaply, and it's often better than what you can buy already mixed.
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Simple recipe to turn that plant's fortunes around:
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70% peat
25% perlite
5% good quality compost (I prefer worm castings, but mushroom compost works)
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I'd add a dry organic fert (like Dr Earth tomato and veg, or similar) at a rate of about 2 cups per 5 gallons, and water it once weekly with Alaska Fish fertilizer, at a rate of 2 Tbsp/gal. That's it. Nothing else.

Spicy Mushroom · Jun 18, 2018

If you think you might be overwatering, it's quite likely that you are. I base that on my experience with helping friends and family. They say something along those lines a lot, and they are always guilty of it. From my experience, most people either water too much or completely neglect the plant haha.

To add to Solid7's advice on a more forgiving approach to fertilizing, you can try adding some red wigglers to your beds. Assuming there is enough decaying organic matter for them to stick around, their castings and leachate will do a decent job feeding them without you having to worry about fertburn.

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

Thanks for the info! I've been trying to only water when the top of the soul is bone dry, I just don't know what I'm doing lol. The raised bed soil definitely felt a little more wet coming right out the bag, I actually didn't add much water to it after repotting.

I will definitely cut down on the watering until absolutely necessary and try to make that simple soil recipe in a few days. Does the peat/perlite mixture retain much water? It seems like a light mixture that would need to be watered more often, which I'm pretty sure would cause me to end up killing them even faster. It does seem like a fairly cheap mixture to put together though, and if it's been tested to work then definitely worth it! Just want to make sure though, I'm assuming the "Miracle Gro Perlite" that comes "enriched with plant food" is probably one to stay away from, right? I'm thinking you just want plain/organic peat and perlite with nothing extra added and then the compost and fish ferts for the nutrients?

Should I switch to another type of fertilizer when (or rather IF) they start flowering? My habs & thais have been flowering for a few weeks but dropping all of them....

Thanks again for the help guys!

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

First, because it's a topic that habitually irks me (it's not you, man, it's me) - big NO to switching ferts for flowering. Ferts don't control flowering and blooming. Most likely its an environmental issue causing your bloom drop. The water could be part of it. Again, just wait and see. As long as your plants stay healthy, we can work through the blossom drop. One problem at a time, though.

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Next, you are correct, the "roll your own" is a sterile media. That is why I suggested adding the dry organic ferts in, when mixing. Organic ferts are WAY more forgiving that salt-based ferts.
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Regarding the peat/perlite mix - the recipe that I gave you has almost perfect water and nutrient retention. It's battle proven. Some people like a lighter mix. The problem is, lighter mixes have neither moisture retention, nor nutrient retention. So you're watering more. And those forgiving ferts that I just spoke of, are almost useless in a lighter (than this) mix. I gave you that recommendation, because it's a perfect balance between user-friendly / low maintenance and performance
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Last, but not least - YES stay away from the MG perlite. It does have added nutrients. Hydro shops or nurseries have perlite. Even if the store seems pricey, ASK at the counter for perlite. I buy mine 4 cu ft at a time, and I pay a little over $20 for it. It's not sold on the retail floor, though...

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

By the way, the compost gets rolled into the mix, and it's NOT for nutrients. It's for nutrient and moisture retention. Plus, it's got "goodies" in it. Oh, and it has the added benefit of helping to wet the peat, which can be a hard thing to do. It's like a natural surfactant. It does, however, have some nutrient value. But that's not the main reason we use it... (or me, anyway)

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

Ok thanks for clarifying, that was my next question about where to put the compost in (top few inches of soil, side dress, etc. etc.).

I haven't heard your particular bias about changing up the fertilizers but I guess it does make sense, assuming you use a balanced one to begin with and not a 20-1-1 or something...?

I guess if we were growing cannabis and needed every single joule of energy produced to go towards the flowers/buds it would be a different story :lol:

I will try to "Keep It Simple, Stupid" for my first year...

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

Poiethis said:
Ok thanks for clarifying, that was my next question about where to put the compost in (top few inches of soil, side dress, etc. etc.).

In the mix. Later top dressings are OK. But keep the amount of compost low. 5% was not a typo.

Poiethis said:
I haven't heard your particular bias about changing up the fertilizers but I guess it does make sense, assuming you use a balanced one to begin with and not a 20-1-1 or something...?

I guess if we were growing cannabis and needed every single joule of energy produced to go towards the flowers/buds it would be a different story

Actually, it's not really different, but they think it is. And so, the manufacturers of expensive things, take their (potheads) monies. There is strength in numbers, and every dipstick closet grower, helps fuel the machine, through their ignorance, and blindly placed trust in marketing claims and bad science.

I use the CNS17 Grow (3-1-2) all season long. And on my plants that I grow organically, I use Alaska Fish (5-1-1) all season. You won't know the difference in which plants were grown with what.

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

solid7 said:
I use the CNS17 Grow (3-1-2) all season long. And on my plants that I grow organically, I use Alaska Fish (5-1-1) all season. You won't know the difference in which plants were grown with what.

So you use *either* the CNS17 grow OR the Alaska fish + organic dry granules/pellets for your plants? That sounds very simple and difficult to screw up (even for someone like me)!

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

I have one set of plants that gets CNS17. I have another section of the garden that's strictly fish and dry organic fert. I was just illustrating that there more than one method of simple. However, it's best to pick one method, and go forth...
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Honestly, if I were you, I'd go with dry organic and fish. It's so forgiving... You can up your game some other time, no?

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

Absolutely, I need to learn the rules of the game first before I start working on advanced techniques :shh:

I really appreciate all the help and info! I'll see if I can find some fish fert locally and if not just use my Amazon prime membership lol

AJ Drew · Jun 18, 2018

I agree very much with Solid that organic is the way to go because it is forging. But keep in mind, it is also the longer time to rehab. There is this product at Lowes that I have experimented with. I forget the name, but if you think sake oil and go to their gardening section you will spot it right off Small bottle, says it won prizes at the World Fair. Makes tons of ridiculous claims on the label. I use it as kind of a tonic when something goes wrong. You know, not a cure or anything but a good kick in the vigor.

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

Was it this stuff?

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

Poiethis said:
Was it this stuff?

072532000148.jpg

That's definitely the stuff. LOL

solid7 · Jun 18, 2018

AJ Drew said:
I agree very much with Solid that organic is the way to go because it is forging. But keep in mind, it is also the longer time to rehab.

That's only true if you present the organics in a non-readily available format - and also why I suggested that he use dry organic ferts with fish. The fish is ready to go right now, plus it has stuff for later. The dry organic ferts fill in the gaps, should you get heavy rains, etc.
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If you need specifics, like calcium, there are always ways to avoid the time premium. Not as convenient as inorganic bottled solutions, but as we both agree, way more forgiving.

Poiethis · Jun 18, 2018

The claims are pretty hilarious, it seems this stuff will cure anything from overwatering to underlighting to bringing back a plant from the dead!

Taken directly from the website:

"Beautifies flowers. Enables plant success when over-wet, over-dry, over-dark, over-light, over-hot, over-cold, over-saturated with sea water or sea winds, over-buffeted by wind or people. Heals open plant wounds to aid in preventing fungus invasion; fluorescent plants to aid in reducing attraction to some pests. Speeds germinating and development of seed cuttings, bulbs and plants. May save years of waiting for harvest ability of fruits and nuts. Improves fruiting and vegetables. Uses up constructively excess fertilizer. Improved root system reaches maximal soil fertility."

Poiethis · Jun 21, 2018

solid7 said:
Actually, having re-read this, I'm thinking that your raised bed "soil" probably isn't going to help your problem. Raised beds behave very differently from containers, and can get away with different parameters.
.
Somebody else recently asked for help with a mix, and my advice - which was exactly the same, on account of me being a creature of habit - was that you can roll your own very cheaply, and it's often better than what you can buy already mixed.
.
Simple recipe to turn that plant's fortunes around:
.
70% peat
25% perlite
5% good quality compost (I prefer worm castings, but mushroom compost works)
.
I'd add a dry organic fert (like Dr Earth tomato and veg, or similar) at a rate of about 2 cups per 5 gallons, and water it once weekly with Alaska Fish fertilizer, at a rate of 2 Tbsp/gal. That's it. Nothing else.

So I just bought 3 ft3 of organic peat moss, 24 qts of organic perlite, about 4 lbs of earthworm castings, 4 lbs of Dr. Earth organic tomato & veg plant food and the small bottle of Alaska Fish Fertilizer. I am planning to repot the reaper and scorpion but I have a few questions.

Should I wait to repot them until they either get worse or have a chance to de-stress since I just put them in the raised bed mix?

The Dr. Earth bag says to mix in 1/2 cup into a 5 gallon container, but you have 2 cups. Should I mix that throughout the soil or try to consolidate it in the top 6" or so?

Should I repot the habanero and thai plants with this mixture or leave them be in the MG all purpose, since they seem to be doing ok (as far as my brown thumb can tell) and even have some peppers forming?

Thanks for all the help and info!

solid7 · Jun 21, 2018

I stand by my numbers. Mix it as I state previously.
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I'm not making this up for interwebs glory. You'll be using something that I've used, and can stand behind.

Poiethis · Jun 21, 2018

Well I guarantee it's better than my soupy potting soil + inorganic tomato food + bi weekly super high nitrogen all purpose plant food!