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Inverse operations

G

Ghaleon

In another thread I inquired about whether or not which plant is pollenated by which mattered. I was linked to Khang Starr videos where he did both. This got him clearly different peppers that he named the Sweet Misery and the Misery Sweet.

Do you find this intriguing? I assume that when you make a cross, it's because you are hoping to get certain characteristics from each to be in the resulting pepper. Wouldn't doing both double your chances of getting the one you hoped for? Better yet, you could be pleasantly surprised by both.
 
Its called a reciprocal cross, and I agree it is pretty interesting
 
We really only think about reciprocal crosses when thinking about sex-linked traits in species with sex chromosomes. Some plants have them, but all the cytological evidence in from capsicum says that peppers do not. however, I too have noticed that reciprocal crosses can sometimes produce F1 hybrids that appear to have different traits. My training makes me believe that these differences would probably disappear with a large enough sample size, but... its hard to ignore.
 
If sweet misery and misery sweet are inbred lines from that cross, then they are just the product of segregated traits and nothing special from the reciprocal cross, but if those are the names of F1 hybrids, then you might be onto something.
 
 
 
Edit:
I forgot to add that reciprocal crosses are important in capsicum when attempting wide crosses, such as inter-specific crosses. I'm not an expert on plant sexual compatibility, but the main idea is that pollen and stigma have proteins that govern whether the pollen will be accepted or not. Reciprocal crosses give you a better chance of finding the right combination or coat proteins that won't produce an incompatibility reaction. That may not be correct, but if anyone is interested I bet we could consult an expert.
 
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Needless to say I've read many threads on crossing -this with that- but to me the issue is, when you find the trait you're looking for, growing out and stabilizing it is quite a commitment. If you read through this treatise on it, tomato & peppers are the same Family Solanceae, after the F1 grow you need to grow out at least 7 more generations to stabilize the strain.....And each time the plants must be segregated to keep the strain pure......
 
Hope this helps, NECM
 
It would be interesting for two growers with different interests growing out the same pepper until it's stabilized to their own liking and then compare them when both reach F8.
 
My first cross ever was between a fatalli and a Maui purple because they were opposite and I wanted to see what was dominate and what was recessive. You could have ten people grow out the f2 until they were stabile and all ten could have something completely different.
 
Gorizza said:
Its called a reciprocal cross, and I agree it is pretty interesting
 
We really only think about reciprocal crosses when thinking about sex-linked traits in species with sex chromosomes. Some plants have them, but all the cytological evidence in from capsicum says that peppers do not. however, I too have noticed that reciprocal crosses can sometimes produce F1 hybrids that appear to have different traits. My training makes me believe that these differences would probably disappear with a large enough sample size, but... its hard to ignore.
 
Click to expand...
 
if peppers don't have sex-linked traits (or at least don't have ones that we notice or care about), then it shouldn't really matter. that is, an AxB cross should be as likely to produce some trait as BxA. and so doing a reciprocal cross (AxB, BxA) is no more useful than doing 2x (AxB) crosses.
 
side question: how does the order of cross notation go in plants?
 
female (seed bearer) x male (pollen donor)
 
is this right?
 
sinensis said:
 
if peppers don't have sex-linked traits (or at least don't have ones that we notice or care about), then it shouldn't really matter. that is, an AxB cross should be as likely to produce some trait as BxA. and so doing a reciprocal cross (AxB, BxA) is no more useful than doing 2x (AxB) crosses.
 
side question: how does the order of cross notation go in plants?
 
female (seed bearer) x male (pollen donor)
 
is this right?
Click to expand...
Yeah it is Female x Male but the randomness of having different phenotypes will make it different in different circumstances
 
I plan to do this this year. I'm wanting to cross my aleppo with a super hot (not sure which one yet) but I plan to move pollen from aleppo to the super hot and pollen from the super hot to the aleppo and see what differences come about in the seed next year. I'm sure it's been tested many many times by others but its new to me so we'll see what happens
 
Ghaleon said:
It would be interesting for two growers with different interests growing out the same pepper until it's stabilized to their own liking and then compare them when both reach F8.
Click to expand...
 
My buddy and I are doing this with the CP special orange that Chris Phillips was selling a few years back when it was only at F2. Mine is smaller, hotter, and closer to black in color, and his is bigger and sweeter, with the orange and purple stripes.
 
Edmick said:
I plan to do this this year. I'm wanting to cross my aleppo with a super hot (not sure which one yet) but I plan to move pollen from aleppo to the super hot and pollen from the super hot to the aleppo and see what differences come about in the seed next year. I'm sure it's been tested many many times by others but its new to me so we'll see what happens
Click to expand...
 
Make sure you don't draw any conclusions from just a few plants, if you want to do an experiment you should grow out lots!
 
A lot of people would only cross to the mother that produces the biggest pod with the most seeds, as we know the pepper, even if its crossed, is going to come out with the mother's phenotype. so if you cross something onto, say, a tiny wild pepper, you'll only get a few F1 seeds to plant.
 
Ghaleon said:
In another thread I inquired about whether or not which plant is pollenated by which mattered. I was linked to Khang Starr videos where he did both. This got him clearly different peppers that he named the Sweet Misery and the Misery Sweet.
Click to expand...
 
sinensis said:
if peppers don't have sex-linked traits (or at least don't have ones that we notice or care about), then it shouldn't really matter. that is, an AxB cross should be as likely to produce some trait as BxA. and so doing a reciprocal cross (AxB, BxA) is no more useful than doing 2x (AxB) crosses.
Click to expand...
 
user: dennish did a reciprocal cross back in 2016 and showed what appear to be differences in pod shape and color when parents were swapped. It was a pretty wide cross. Evidence of sex linkage in peppers? a crossing error? Accidental outcrossing on the F1 (that one is actually pretty likely, as a lot of wide-crossed F1s aren't actually self-fertile).
 
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/62327-making-a-new-chilli-aji-bodysnatcher/?hl=reciprocal#entry1468340
 
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