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Any way I can sprout these old seeds?


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#1 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 03:47 PM

I'm trying to sprout some of my Pimenta de Neyde x Bhut Jolokia (F8) - possibly crossed with a Yellow 7 pot seeds.  It's been three weeks and nothing.  I tried both soil and the wet paper towel (both sealed and unsealed) method.  Zero for fourteen so far!  The problem is that the seeds are from the end of the 2015 season.  I did store them well - sealed Ziplocs with desiccant packs inside of a brown manila envelope.

 

I'm now getting worried, as I'm planting out on May 24th.

 

If I have to, I'll buy some new seeds, but was really looking forward to growing these out.

 

Any guerrilla sprouting techniques to recommend?

 

Any way I can sprout these old seeds, or am I probably SOL?

 

 


Edited by dragon49, 14 April 2019 - 03:49 PM.


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#2 Sawyer

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 04:01 PM

I got a nominal improvement in germination using the method described in this post in Orekoc's glog:
http://thehotpepper....grow/?p=1624254

I'm sure it's far from optimized, but it's a start. I think next time I try it I'll add a second H2O2 soak for 15 minutes just before planting.

Also, this improved germination for seeds that were already germinating reasonably well at 69%. I may have gotten just as much improvement from a simple overnight soak.

I tried it with some other seeds from 2014 and got 0%. If I can find it, I'll try GA3 with some more of these.

#3 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 04:45 PM

A common problem is that old seeds aren't able to get enough oxygen to germinate properly (hypoxia).  Studies have shown that hydrogen peroxide soaks have improved germination in older seed by getting significantly more oxygen into the seed.  I did a post on it here that also contains a link to a University of Florida study: 

 

http://thehotpepper....on/?hl=peroxide

 

The Cliff's Notes are best results were obtained with a 24 hour soak diluting 3% H2O2 into water at anywhere from a 1:9 to 1:19 H2O2 to H2O ratio. 

 

I've seen sugar/carbohydrate solutions used in germinating very old seeds, but under completely sterile conditions.  If conditions aren't sterile, it creates a breeding ground for pathogens so could potentially create new problems.  Other than H2O2 and perhaps a brief bleach treatment or similar to address pathogens, I'm not aware of anything else that will materially increase your odds other than proper temps and humidity levels.  I don't use hormones such as Gibberellic acid, but what I've read is that while they hasten germination, they don't directly increase the likelihood of germination.

 

Of course, none of the above will make bad seed germinate, but it could help with marginal seed.  Hope your seeds aren't toast.  0 for 14 isn't a great start, but it would be cool to see your cross if some of these can pull through.


Edited by CaneDog, 14 April 2019 - 04:48 PM.


#4 moruga welder

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 05:39 PM

did you soak them overnight ?  I  was 20 of 24 with seeds from 2016 ,  



#5 cmpman1974

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 05:46 PM

lol, I can sprout 15-20 yr seeds easily so can't imagine that to be an issue.  Over 50% of my flowers germinated are 2003 seed.  Germinated many 2007 and 2010 seeds this year. 

 

 

Chris


Edited by cmpman1974, 14 April 2019 - 05:47 PM.


#6 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 06:25 PM

A common problem is that old seeds aren't able to get enough oxygen to germinate properly (hypoxia).  Studies have shown that hydrogen peroxide soaks have improved germination in older seed by getting significantly more oxygen into the seed.  I did a post on it here that also contains a link to a University of Florida study: 

 

http://thehotpepper....on/?hl=peroxide

 

The Cliff's Notes are best results were obtained with a 24 hour soak diluting 3% H2O2 into water at anywhere from a 1:9 to 1:19 H2O2 to H2O ratio. 

 

I've seen sugar/carbohydrate solutions used in germinating very old seeds, but under completely sterile conditions.  If conditions aren't sterile, it creates a breeding ground for pathogens so could potentially create new problems.  Other than H2O2 and perhaps a brief bleach treatment or similar to address pathogens, I'm not aware of anything else that will materially increase your odds other than proper temps and humidity levels.  I don't use hormones such as Gibberellic acid, but what I've read is that while they hasten germination, they don't directly increase the likelihood of germination.

 

Of course, none of the above will make bad seed germinate, but it could help with marginal seed.  Hope your seeds aren't toast.  0 for 14 isn't a great start, but it would be cool to see your cross if some of these can pull through.

 

I bought some Hydrogen peroxide (3% standardized) and some of my seeds a now getting a 1:9 peroxide to Evian 24 hour soak.

 

While I was going through the un-sprouted seeds, I found this small sign of life. Is this enough of a tail to put in soil, or should I add it to the main soak and wait for it to grow some more?

 

 

 

REGpVSi.jpg



#7 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 06:29 PM

Stuff it into soil quickly with as little dehydration rough-treatment as possible and cross your fingers!



#8 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 06:39 PM

Stuff it into soil quickly with as little dehydration rough-treatment as possible and cross your fingers!

About to.

 

I have ordinary potting soil and potting soil with time-released fertilizer.  Which should I use?

 

Eagerly awaiting your reply :)

 

Ty



#9 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 06:40 PM

Seeing radical emergence on the 1 is a great sign. 

 

I read comments above about growers having good luck with older seed and IMO what it boils down to most is that if the seed starts out viable and is dried properly and stored properly, old seed will germinate quite well under normal proper methods.  I had great numbers on 8-10 year old seed recently.  If a particular batch of seeds has been dried or stored improperly for whatever reason, no special treatment will make it viable.  Your seed may have run into some problem for whatever reason, but now that you've seen an instance of radical emerged you know there's some viability in your batch.

 

So if it were me now, I'd do an 18-24 hour H2O2 soak to give them whatever bit of help you can and just pay particular attention to my temperature and humidity environment remaining optimal. And I'd plant quite a few to get the odds in my favor!


Edited by CaneDog, 14 April 2019 - 06:47 PM.


#10 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 06:46 PM

I would target no or low fertilizer in the mix and a finer mix (like seed starting mix) rather than a coarse mix if possible.  High peat percentage with some perlite isn't bad at all.



#11 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 07:06 PM

I would target no or low fertilizer in the mix and a finer mix (like seed starting mix) rather than a coarse mix if possible.  High peat percentage with some perlite isn't bad at all.

I'm using the no fertilizer mix that I have.  It has a lot of perlite - I can see the white stuff all over the place.

 

I gently put the root in the middle middle of the pot; pushing it in a drop, and lightly sprinkled some soil over the seed head.  

 

If the transplant takes, do you think the seed head will pop out and start to split in a day or two?



#12 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 07:19 PM

I'd expect a little longer, maybe even 4 days.

 

:thumbsup:



#13 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 07:32 PM

I'd expect a little longer, maybe even 4 days.

 

:thumbsup:

 

OK - When it (hopefully) comes up, I'll post here and link to the beginning of my 2019 Glog.  The soil is from a freshly opened bag and is moist, so I didn't water at all - was mildly worried about pushing the root too far down.

 

I haven't grown from seed since 2015 and started getting nervous.

 

Thanks for all the quick replies.  Hopefully, I'll be posting some pictures before the end of the week. :)



#14 JoynersHotPeppers

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 08:07 PM

I am still sprouting seeds from a 1995 pod...just saying...


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#15 dragon49

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:13 PM

I am still sprouting seeds from a 1995 pod...just saying...

How do you store them?



#16 Ruid

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 09:54 PM

I am still sprouting seeds from a 1995 pod...just saying...


So what's being a wizard like?

#17 Bicycle808

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 10:24 PM

Until this year, I have had a lot of success germinating seeds. This year, most of my annuums fell flat. Many struggled with debilitating helmet heads, and the rest got moldy before they pushed out a taproot. Only my Zapotecs, which I grew from seeds I collected in October 2019, suffered from neither problem... Oh and I bought some Cayennes seeds to start for a buddy that did great, as did Serrano seeds I bought from CCN in 2018.

So, I already know I got to revise my methodology next year. Thankfully, all of my Chinense (except Yella Fataliis) and all of my Baccatums germinated awesomely. Also thankfully, I don't give a fuck about annuums aside from Jalapeños, so I'm at peace with this.

The moral of this post, after that rambling, narcissistic rant, is that I've germinated some seeds that were over five years old before. And I routinely germinate seeds that are in the 3 year range. I think that, as others mentioned above, proper prep before drying them out, and proper storage afterwards, are the keys to success. I just gotta find ways to keep the mold down next year....

Edited by Bicycle808, 15 April 2019 - 07:55 AM.

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#18 CaneDog

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 11:05 PM

I've posted this previously I think, but it's a good resource on seed drying and storage.

 

http://howtosaveseeds.com/store.php



#19 Datil

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 03:14 AM

I am still sprouting seeds from a 1995 pod...just saying...

 

It really depends by the quality/maturity of the seeds at the time of collection and storage method.

Unrefrigerated seeds can be a PITA to sprout but still i've had luck with some really old seeds forgotten in a closet.

On the other hand, some seeds won't germinate not matter how hard you try.

When all seems lost i usually dispose them in a corner of my garden and forget them, i've been lucky enough to find some random sprouts after some weeks and rain showers...

 

Best of luck

 

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#20 dragon49

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 07:52 AM

I've posted this previously I think, but it's a good resource on seed drying and storage.

 

http://howtosaveseeds.com/store.php

 

I followed all of the correct drying and storage procedures EXCEPT for climate control.  The manila envelope with the seeds had been sitting in a basement linen closet.  Humidity wasn't a problem, (neither with the basement, nor with the storage) but I have no idea what the temperature was and I'm sure it varied.






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