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hybrid Eating mysterious peppers and my own words. (A rant on crossed seeds)

Earlier this year, I poo-poohed folks here on THP and elsewhere for whining about finding that open-pollinated seeds they'd bought ended up being unknown crosses.

My thoughts were (maybe still are?) that you know that's a possibility when you bought the seeds, and that open-pollinated seeds tend to cost less, you get what you pay for, caveat emptor, et cetera ad nauseum...

After all, last year, I grew dozens and dozens of plants from seeds I got from a very popular purveyor of value-priced open-pollinated seeds. (I don't want to mention any names, bc I don't want ppl to think negatively of the business; the seeds are clearly described as open-pollinated when I bought them, and I knew the risks going in...) Of well over fifty plants from that source(and probably more; that's a conservative estimate) only two didn't produce pods true to the strain. That's a <4% rate of crossed seeds. I felt super confident about them.

Fast-forward to right now, and of 9 plants that have produced ripe pods, 3 were way off-pheno, and probable crosses. There's a few others that are suspect, but we'll see what happens when they color up. But yeah, jumping from 4% to 33%, that don't feel good.

Mostly bc I hate to admit to myself that I was wrong.

So far, I've been enjoying the off-pheno pods; they aren't bad at all, but they're disappointing in regards to my hopes and dreams; my plans and schemes. But, for the past week, I've been suffering from a sudden and as-of-yet unexplained case of Dysgeusia, which really sucks and I hope it passes bc everything tastes wise and it makes it much harder for me to analyze and judge these weird pods.

What do the rest of y'all Do when you end up putting a lot of time and effort into growing plants, only to be confronted by unexpectedly weird pods?
 
Jajaja, y'all are absolutely right about the isolated seeds. Except I'm pretty sure I'll still grow from open-pollinated stock, especially from seeds I saved myself...

I think the important thing will be to carefully weigh just how "important" the specific chiles are too NY future culinary plans. Some stuff I'm growing just for shits& giggles; didn't matter if I inadvertently grow an unknown cross instead. Other stuff, like various Yellow Bonnets, certain Supers in growing for signature success, shit like that
... Those I gotta get right. So, I'll stick to isolated seedstock for that.

Eventually, I want to have enough of a clue where I'm growing (slightly) fewer total plants, but FAR fewer total varieties. That ought to make seed collection easier, but it will also mean that isolated seeds will be more crucial
 
This is an issue for most open pollinated grows.  I used to grow 60-70 tomato varieties/year.  Each year I would end up with several NOT somethings.  Also it makes you question seed swaps and trades.  Isolation is the only way but it's not in my plan for now.  
 
Last year i had a mystery pepper. It was supposed to be a red MOA bonnet but looked nothing like a bonnet. Looked quite a bit like a nagah morich. Since i had 2 other red bonnets cranking out pods it was no big deal. Plus the mystery pods had good heat and flavor.
 
CCN has sent me a couple of plants that didn't match pheno at all. Not even close. One was a Jamaican mushroom/squash type that looked more like tiny golden bells. Pods had nice heat and flavor. Sure hope i saved some of those seeds.
 
I'm still torn on this issue.
 
I enjoy the extra variety some of these open-pollinated seed vendors provide.  And, for my part, the interesting surprises have out-weighed the disappointments.
 
On the other hand, as a business person, I don't see how you can run a seed business when at least ~10-15% of your seeds are probably crossed if you don't isolate.  Even if you could find a way to get that down around 5%, customers tend to remember the disappointments.
 
And, I'm sure the day is coming in the future when I had my heart set on growing a certain pepper, only to find myself super pissed off when it turns out to be a cross.
 
Harry_Dangler said:
This is an issue for most open- pollinated grows.  I used to grow 60-70 tomato varieties/year.  Each year I would end up with several NOT somethings.  Also it makes you question seed swaps and trades.  Isolation is the only way but it's not in my plan for now.  
I want to get moving on an indoor propagation project, for no reason other than getting my supply of isolated seeds up, just on the varieties that matter to me. Pretty much none of those varieties are anything esoteric, so getting seeds--even genuinely isolated seedstock-- wouldn't be difficult. But, I'm kinda inclined to go DIY when I can, plus on the few short years that I've been into chiles, I have shady seen that the market is fickle. Trends come and go. What is ubiquitous now might be scarce two years from now, at least as far as pure, unadulterated, quality stuff goes...

Good on you to eff with all of those tomatoes. I find it maddening to grow tomatoes, but my wife is a huge fan. And, with tomato prices rumors to be about to skyrocket, I just might switch some if my chile beds over to tomatoes in 2020...

ShowMeDaSauce said:
Last year i had a mystery pepper. It was supposed to be a red MOA bonnet but looked nothing like a bonnet. Looked quite a bit like a nagah morich. Since i had 2 other red bonnets cranking out pods it was no big deal. Plus the mystery pods had good heat and flavor.
 
CCN has sent me a couple of plants that didn't match pheno at all. Not even close. One was a Jamaican mushroom/squash type that looked more like tiny golden bells. Pods had nice heat and flavor. Sure hope i saved some of those seeds.
CCN has thrown me some curveballs, too. Last year, none of my Naga Morich seeds germinated. I ordered two plants from CCN. Neither grew Naga Morich. Good peppers, nonetheless, but that's one of my favorite varieties and I grew ZERO last year...

I'm curious about your microscopic lil hot yellow bell peppers, btw.

DontPanic said:
I'm still torn on this issue.
 
I enjoy the extra variety some of these open-pollinated seed vendors provide.  And, for my part, the interesting surprises have out-weighed the disappointments.
 
On the other hand, as a business person, I don't see how you can run a seed business when at least ~10-15% of your seeds are probably crossed if you don't isolate.  Even if you could find a way to get that down around 5%, customers tend to remember the disappointments.
 
And, I'm sure the day is coming in the future when I had my heart set on growing a certain pepper, only to find myself super pissed off when it turns out to be a cross.
I think that the extra space and effort required for seed vendors to produce isolated seeds would offset the benefits of higher prices and more consistency. I'm only guessing, of course, but that's how it looks to me, so I'm not surprised at the number of vendors selling O-P seeds.

And yes, the wild card aircraft of these seeds can be interesting and even fun, when the stakes are low. But, like you said, when you're COUNTING on a particular variety and it turns out to be something different, that can be crushing. Especially when you have plans for that particular variety..

Which is why I'm thinking I need to propagate indoors for isolated seedstock, and rely on vendors with isolated seeds for the crucial posts of my grow. My perennial favorites would be exactly the kinda I grow isolated indoors myself, and the new-to-me strains that I have surviving needs and purposes for, I can get those from places like Semillas de Palma. Everything I've ever grown from Peter M's seeds has grown true. I suppose nobody's perfect and I'm bound to get something of from Semillas eventually, but they have good prices and a great track record for me so far.

I'll still buy the cheap stuff from the vendor that inspired this thread, though, when it comes to trying new SuperHots or marginally interesting stuff bc, with stuff like that, if it comes out "wrong," it won't really matter.

Fwiw, I'm growing at least forty different varieties this year. And probably only six of them truly matter, at the end of the day. Another five or six of them, i'd be severely disappointed if they all didn't grow true, but I'd be ok. Life goes on. The rest are totally "shits and giggles" projects. Growing most of these purely for fun, and worrying about off-pheno and unintended crosses takes all of the fun out of it.
 
CCN called them Jamaican Gold.
 
hot; Squash; 1 to 1.5 inches long by 1.25 to 1.75 inches wide; medium thick flesh; matures from green to golden yellow; pendant pods; green leaves; 18 to 24 inches tall; Mid Season (70-80 days); Uses: Prolific; from Jamaica; C.annuum.
 
 
Supposed to look like this
jamaican-gold-pepper-plants.jpg

 
Every single one looked like this. VERY thin walled and quite hot for a annuum.
RYyH6I9.jpg

fNqe3JT.jpg

 
 
Looks tasty. Are you certain it was an annuum? Got that chinense look. Quite possibly an annuum/chinense cross, like the Jamaican Hot Mush aka Squash peppers are...
 
No "habby" flavor or aroma at all. Im pretty certain its a annuum or a cross. Heat level close to a good Thai pepper but much better flavor. Very productive for a small plant.
 
On a side note after another damn round of rain...we got pounded horribly again.....I picked a small Zapotec. Man was that sucker hot for a jalapeno. Like eating a good serrano. Much hotter than the first two Mucho Nacho i sampled but i have gotten some of them that hot too. Normally not until the summer temps arrive.
 
Yeah, Mang... I don't know that they're the hottest Jalapeños out there, but I can say that the Zapotecs are the hottest Jalapeños I've tried so far
 
 
"Fast-forward to right now, and of 9 plants that have produced ripe pods, 3 were way off-pheno, and probable crosses. There's a few others that are suspect, but we'll see what happens when they color up. But yeah, jumping from 4% to 33%, that don't feel good.

Mostly bc I hate to admit to myself that I was wrong."
 
Jesus wept
 
Seriously  though well done, you got the heat!
 
 
Hello all.  Growing peppers is very interesting and fun.  I live in Panama.  We do not have access to the same seed sources you do.  So, I have to save seed.  This year I am growing some peppers that someone from the US sent me.  The basics.  Thai hots.  Cayennes.  Tobasco.  That kind of thing.  Nothing is isolated.  I also have sweet chinense peppers as well as wild peppers growing and jalepeno's.  I just started some chumbo peppers also.  I gotta live with the darn crossing problems.  Seeds are hard to save here also because of the heat and humidity.  I have to keep them in the fridge and if they freeze in the fridge accidentally that can also damage the seed(some pepper seed doesn't like to be frozen).  I have to live with the challenges and try to maintain a good sense of humor.  We also do not have access to the same products that you guys have in the states.  I have to mix my horrid acidic clay soil with a type of sawdust compost that I buy in the hardware store to make a half way decent soil that the peppers can live in.  I am constantly experimenting.  I have my share of failures.  I have my best luck using seed I find in the produce section of the grocery store, and also using seed from wild peppers I find in the woods.  These plants have disease resistance and nematode resistance.  When I get a cross, its just par for the course.  I eat what I get.  Try again next time.  Its still fun.  
 
I sampled my mystery pepper. Flavor was just like the ones you get in a can of medium green chiles. About jalapeno hot and grassy in a good way. Looks similar to a broome pepper but i didnt grow anything like that last year.
 
Glen, aji chombo is a very popular and common pepper in Panama. Very similar to a red bonnet or hab. Like many Thai peppers they probably dont make much of an effort to isolate them. The name probably covers a good variety of similar peppers.
 
CARDI is based in the Caribbean and offers at least 4 peppers.
http://www.cardi.org/blog/the-world-hottest-peppers-produced-and-sold-by-cardi/
http://www.cardi.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/07/GENUINE-CARIBBEAN-HOT-PEPPER-SEED-PRODUCED-AND-SOLD-BY-CARDI-25jul2014.pdf

 
Hot pepper varieties: Scorpion, Morgua Red, Scotch Bonnet, West Indies Red
Contact information: If you are interested in purchasing CARDI’s genuine Caribbean hot pepper seed please contact  Fayaz Shah mailto:fshah@cardi.org
Genuine Caribbean hot pepper seed produced and sold by CARDI. St. Augustine, Trinidad and Tobago: Caribbean Agricultural Research and Development Institute.
 
 
 
Fyi, I know someone who placed a substantial order with CARDI, and it never shipped. And CARDI refused to refund the payment. So, as always, caveat emptor.

I was set to place an order till I heard that story.
 
ShowMeDaSauce-you are right, the growers in Panama don't make a big fuss about isolating plants as far as I can tell, with the exception of the sweet Chinense peppers.  I rarely see those here but I grabbed a few of the prettiest ripe examples a few months ago and planted some seed.  They would have to keep those isolated from any hot peppers or they wouldn't stay sweet.  Some of the sweet chinense peppers are quite attractive, looking just as nice as any hot bonnet type peppers that you see.  Some have tails on them, some look more like traditional super hots without the tail.  Some have hints of floral flavor, some have that spicey flavor without the heat.  The general word for them is Aji Criollo.  They are sweet peppers with some pizazz.  Nothing better than chopping those up with some onions and garlic plus a little hot chumbo and frying that up with some sliced beef.  These types of peppers grow real slow.  I have plants outside over 3 months old that still haven't begun to bloom.  Nothing seems to bother C Chinense in the tropics.  Plants grow real pretty without pests or desease.  You will have other variety's near them suffering-all imported seed usually.  Right now, the best import I have growing is Thai hot's.  The rest are suffering in my tropical climate-trying to just stay alive with all the fungal and viral issues etc.
 
A few of the rocotos might do ok in your climate. Most probably will not but there are a few that tolerate the heat and rain. They can be very sweet and upto habanero in heat. Much different flavor though. Usually they will not cross easily with other pepper varieties.
 
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