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Another LED Thread

I love LED's. I dunno why. I just do. As they were being developed and used I've always been fascinated with them. I guess it's like a bug to a bug light. I've read lots of the DIY builds on a lot of different sites specific to many different plant species and even aquaculture. I've followed the threads here. Here's what I'm trying to do and the questions I have.
   I grow pepper and tomato seedlings up till I plant them outside. I use 18"x48" T8 6 tube lights that I get at HD and they cost approx $110 to get up and running. $120-$125 if I don't have a power cord to rob the end off of. They're rated output is 17,069 Lm and use 2.02a. The Phillips bulbs I use are 6500K CRI 82 32w 2750 Lm. I'd like to build a fixture the same size since that's what I'm set up for and it fits my 1020 tray layout nicely. I'd also like to make something else to light my overwintering citrus instead of a 400w MH which will be different in size and shape but something I'd build after I get the peppers taken care of 1st.
  Using numbers that smokemaster has shared on THP as a reference I made some general calculations. Keep in mind I realize the figures for T8's and LED's are not in stone numbers but we have to start somewhere. Using 1w LED's putting out 80 Lm I'd need approx 212.5 LED's to have equal lumens. 212.5 1w LED's would use approx 1.93a. Using the standard volts x amps = watts calculation. So far our numbers are pretty close between T8 vs. LED. Now smoke has stated he likes to use 50+ LED's in a 16"x8" area. Which when expanded out for my desired area would use 337.5 LED's using approx 3.06a. That would give me 27,000 Lm. So on the surface it would seem to be a wash. Not saving any money on electricity usage in the one example. Using a bit more in the other. In the first example my light output is equal. In the second example it is more.
   The point that using just raw numbers doesn't address is the quality of light from the LED's.  I understand that of the 17,069 Lm the T8 puts out not all of it is light my plants need/use. So trying to equal out the output may not be a valid idea. Maybe using just the wavelengths the plants need lowers the total lumens I need to have my DIY unit puts out. Of course to me lighting is something I prefer to have too much of vs. too little. So my amp usage and lumen guestimates is an apples to oranges comparison.
   Also a consideration to take into account is cost of the build. No way is it going to be more cost effective to build a LED unit vs. what I can get the T8's up and running for. That is unless I can buy 1w stars for a quarter apiece or so. Also the price of drivers, power supplies, and the aluminum structure. I would probably buy from a supply house. Too many shaky 'el cheapo China sellers on the 'ol bay. This is not a cost is not an object or a cheap as possible build. I prefer quality parts going into a long term investment.  I understand there are more powerful LED's than the 1w I'm using as an example. I don't want to have to resort to heatsinks and fans to keep the mess cool. I like the idea of the aluminum mounting plate or frame passively cooling the lights. Also, I like the mounting of the stars. I'm not interested in drilling a bazillion holes to mount all of the LED's.
   Soooooo. Long winded what I'm really saying is this. I'm wanting to build a 18" x 48" unit. How many LED's is reasonable? Ratio of red vs. blue? I'll have a few white in there to allow plant inspection & viewing. What are preferred brands of LED's and drivers? I'd like to make this light just to see how well my plants respond. If it's not too crazy in time and money I'd make a few more to take the place of the extra lights I need down the road. Thanks for reading the long post. I'd love to hear some other ideas or thoughts on this. Did I mention I love LED's...............................
 
The scientists subjected hydroponically grown tomato plants to three light intensities at three red-to-blue ratio levels. Secondary lighting treatments used for comparison included 100% high-pressure sodium (HPS), 100% red LED light supplied from above the plant, 100% red LED light supplied below the plant, a 50%:50% LED:HPS mixture, and a control (no supplemental lighting). Both runs of the experiment were implemented for 120 days during two (summer-fall and winter-spring) seasons.
 
Results showed that the five highest number of fruit-producing light treatments were 5:1 high (385 fruit), 5:1 medium (358 fruit), 5:1 low (341 fruit), 19:1 high (315 fruit), and 100% LED (310 fruit). "Overall, the highest producing LED treatments consistently outperformed the high-pressure sodium treatment alone," the authors said. "These treatments can be considered an improvement over traditional HPS lighting for greenhouses."
Outcomes also revealed that high irradiance levels resulted in the highest vegetative biomass and fruit production for all ratios. The results showed that the highest biomass production (excluding fruit) occurred using the 19:1 ratio, while higher fruit production was obtained using the 5:1 ratio. The highest marketable fruit production resulted from the 50%:50% LED:HPS treatment. The authors said that the 5:1 high treatment performed well in every category.
 
"As expected from the literature, higher intensities bring forth more production with all ratios producing more under higher irradiance levels," Deram, Lefsrud, and Orsat said. They also determined that an increase in red light increased biomass production and slightly lowered the amount of fruit production. They concluded that LEDs are a "promising mechanism" to enhance greenhouse artificial lighting systems.
 
I'm not sure if I am reading correctly but this
 
The results showed that the highest biomass production (excluding fruit) occurred using the 19:1 ratio, while higher fruit production was obtained using the 5:1 ratio.
 
is saying use 19 red to 1 blue for good foliage development or bump it to 5 red to 1 blue for later growth and pod production? 
 
What is the 5:1 high, 5:1 medium, 5:1 low saying? The ratios of red  5 : 1 blue as they related to fruit production correct? Highest fruit, med, etc?
The 19:1 ratio seems to dispute a lot of articles you read that seems to want a broad blue spectrum in the 439 Nm and 469 Nm range  and then red at 642 Nm to 667 Nm. Although blue is more easily adsorbed than the red spectrum maybe that's why. Thanks!
 
its talking about high medium and low output "irradiance levels" ie a 50 watt led panel, 75w or 100w. Though I dont remember the specific numbers.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/49/4/448.abstract

hydroponically grown tomato plants (Solanum lycopersicum L.) were grown using a full factorial design with three light intensities (high: 135 μmol·m−2·s−1, medium: 115 μmol·m−2·s−1, and low: 100 μmol·m−2·s−1) at three red (661 nm) to blue (449 nm) ratio levels (5:1, 10:1, and 19:1).
 
 
T8 fluoros are about equal in power usage as 1 watt LEDS.
BUT I think I get a ton more plant usable light from them.
 
I don't use drivers,I use resistors and LM 317's run off a computer power supply - 12volt,12amp(I think)runs between 45-50Leds.
I use snap on heat sinks and a computer fan in a 4in. x 6in. plastic box separate from my panels.
Otherwise I'd need 3 drivers.
LM's aren't the best way,But I did the screw mounted LEDS and LM thing because I wanted to be able to easily change out parts,not start over.
Now that I'm pretty confident my Chinese LEDS aren't TOTAL junk,and I didn't fry a crapload of them.
I'd go with heat conducting glue,but keep the LM's until bigger driver are something I can use.
Actually I am trying to figure out a constant DC. power supply that I can just plug in and run to my panels.
Going to have to put in a circuit so if a string burns out the whole panel doesn't fry...
 
I'm going to convert to larger voltage power supplies to drive longer strings.
 
I believed the internet talk about chinese LEDS being total crap,at first.
 
I've only burnt our under 10 stars in well over 5 yrs.
 
LEDS cost me roughly $.45 each or less for stars.
Ya gotta buy a lot at a time and don't buy on E Bay.
Write the manufacturer that sells on E Bay and LIE like a dog on your bed when you aren't around. :)
 
Tell them your supplier isn't filling you demand for product or whatever,Start with a $.25 each price for several hundred LEDS.
 
1 watt LEDS only get to the 80-100LM in Blue,Red your Lucky to get 50LM.,high red 40lm.
 
I like 10mm LEDS a lot BUT they don't come in as many wavelengths in 1/2 -1watt LEDS ( lot more Lm and narrower angles).
You can also put them closer together.
Run right they need no cooling.
BUT they are a LOT brighter than stars.
Also I think Stars put out more LM. of what they are rated at than the 10mm LEDs.
A LED only has to be 50%+ of whatever wavelength to be whatever.
Using the old CD reflection method of seeing light rings like a Prism,stars that are red put out mostly red,10mm LEDS put out more red than orange or other colors even though they are rated as whatever.
BUT I see it as a good thing.
I'm getting a lot of the colors some say plants also need in lesser amounts...No need to add white,Yellow,green etc.
You most times get enough already from your LEDs.
 
My goal is to not over think stuff because of sales BS.
 
They act like an LED ONLY puts out a specific wavelength - their overpriced crap isn't anything better than using any LED between 400nm to 480nm and red in 620nm - 670nm.
I'd bet you can get more wavelengths overlapping each other just because I can put the LEDS closer together on a Panel.
I want EVERY wavelength plants use if I can.
 
My plants told me so. BUT I only grow Peppers,no weeds...
 
I use a meter that tells me Lux.Works for me.
It agrees with what my plants tell me...
 
Everybody uses Power usage as a measure of Lumens.
I have 3 watt LEDS that put out 30LM and 1 watt Leds that put out 80+lm.
Ya they say Watts is also a measure of light,BUT the vendors are selling Watts as a power use as a good thing.
Like other light sources,power usuage/Watts are how fast your meter spins.
If ya can't dazzle them with brilliance Baffle them with BS.
I wonder how many people go to Homey Depot and buy a cheep meter that goes between your power source and your lights and see if their panel or whatever is using X watts or if the Watts thing is the power or whatever the panel puts out in light.
Nobody I'd guess or very few.
 
IT's on the net so IT has to be true.
This works for MY grow,might not for you.I don't know.
I may have just learned to use them to suit my grow.
It's a fact,you can't grow stuff miss using a light source.
Can't put my stuff farther away then 24in. max.
Any farther and you wasted your time and $.
 
I DO like LED plants not needing to harden off like under the 65K fluoros I liked - T10 bulbs.
 
I started out with 3 watt LEDS.
Then saw the LM and price difference.
Saw more Lm. abd nm. with 1 watt LEDS.
 
I don't believe the light meter stuff about LEDS-they aren't made to measure LED light.
 
Since I'm using (Hopefully) the same wavelengths we see - 400nm -700nm+/-,why do they work for other things but not for LEDS?
 
I don't care if a lux meter can't see all the light I and my plants can't see.
 
We both use the same NM. of light to see or grow under.
 
All I need is the wave lengths plants need - the LEDS are rated at that plants use mostly.
 
All the stray stuff I'm pretty sure is in large enough LM. to do the job.
Even the pot sites are finding out the red trip is old news with LEDS.
They were probably already getting the reds plants needed all the time from the 50% or less NM LEDS put out anyway.
 
I know several people using only blue or red LEDS with no problem getting PEPPERS to grow AND fruit.
I'd never use only 1 or the other.
As I said my goal is to supply every wavelength a pepper plant needs -imitate the sun if I can.
My shelves are about equal in Lux as the sun - somewhere around 35,000 Lux.
I never thought at first 1 watt LEDS would work close to what they do.
I believed the internet EXPERTS.
Yes I have learned a lot about where to start out,But a LOT through trial and error proved to be wrong for PEPPERS.
I Never used Halides,too much heat to deal with.
I wanted Max. LM in as close to ONLY plant usable NM.
FOR PEPPERS ONLY.
 
Don't ask for Pics-
 
I had to delete my photobucket pics because people were using my pics to sell crap.
 
Selling E Bay seeds using my pic because they were selling Cayenne seeds or whatever for what they used my pic as an example of what they were buying.
 
Or I'd post pics of my setup etc.
 
My pics of my panels as I built them,etc.
I had step by step pics at first.
 
I don't like sites like this and MANY others saving my pics as their own.
GOOGLE IS the worst!
 
A few pics say they are from THP and say they are mine (cool) BUT more are from here that say THP giving me 0 credit.
Not just this site but several others.
Actually THP is probably the least offender so far.
Most times it says THC and it's MY pic.
 
I am not computer literate,never will be.
 
I would rather not post pics than hassle with dealing with the whole thing.
I've got life to deal with that doesn't include being pissed about the small stuff anymore,
Though I do at times...
 
Just being a member doesn't mean I have to give up my copy write.
 
I'll not post my pics on the net until I figure a way to force a site or person to get permission from me to use or save my pics to be used as whoever wants them to be used. 
I had a few people giving me crap because my pic was used on E bay or whever and they got screwed and got no aqnswer from the vendor.They gave me crap because the pic said Smokemaster so they came after me.
 
Most of my pics suck,old camera,essential tremors , shakey pics, but I guess they generate hits or something,sell a vendors product.
 
Some of the crappy pics were probably the only pics on the net for whatever variety at the time,they had to steal my pics...
Might be messing with the pic to be able to use it or whatever.
 
All I ever asked for is for anyone to ask me for permission or give me credit for the pic (after asking).
All I get most times is crap from people saying I'm an ass for hassling them or whatever.
I posted it wherever , they now own them , they have a right to use my pic. because they want to.
 
Thanks Smokemaster. I like to experiment and see what my plants like better. I do want to put something together and see how they respond. I know what you are saying. I see a lot of people and their builds seem based on conjecture and stuff they read with not much basis on what really is working for others. I like having a unit that is going to run reliable without me constantly having to dink with it. I can see getting an understanding of the proper voltages and amps to make a stable circuit will take more research on my part. I have dealt with  electricity and electronics for year but I and no engineer or wiz by no means. I have a few friends who build/repair computers so obtaining some power supplies should not be too hard. I'll have to see which way will be the better choice for how ever many LED's I use. So if I'm reading things correctly all LED's really need is a given voltage circuit either from some sort of power supply or drivers which in effect are power converters? I have used circuits with LM317's used to regulate voltages but never built them into a circuit.
   Those 10mm LED's are some big MF's!! I'm thinking of a single LED as some small dinky thing. The 10mm look huge (as far as an LED) vs. what I'm thinking about or what I've seen used. They just poke into a drilled hole to mount?  Then run interconnect wiring to the individual leads on the back side. Do you mix 10mm and stars on panels or one or the other? So the blue is the only ones getting to 80-100Lm. The reds will only do about half that. Is the light output angle something to pay attention to? A person would think the 60 deg output would focus more light down on to your plants. A wider angle my be good if you are lighting from below?
  My goal is to learn about the LED's enough to pick up some parts and start experimenting with the different types and see how the they behave and what makes sense. I'll probably have to get a meter to accurately judge what strength different layout concentrations are achieving. By next seedling season I may have a working prototype as a test to use on a control group of plants. Like you say to see "what my plants like".  Thanks for the info. No pics necessary.
 
For anyone interested I found some good articles that goes over some of the basics of our friend the LED. I'll edit and add as I go.
 
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_8.html
 
https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/light-emitting-diodes-leds
 
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Basic_Light_Emitting_Diode_guide
 
Fairly basic stuff but it has good info like figuring the current limiting resistor value and such.There are tons more out there but these tell us most of what we need to know to get started.
 
I mount 10mm LEDS on 12 X 8in (I think) perf boards.
Solder legs together...
Holes work out great for spacing.
 
125 ,10mm. LEDS fit on a perf. board.
 
Wide angle = more color overlap,BUT less Lm at distances.more light dissapation.
Think a spot light compared to a light bulb of the same LM.
 
10mm Leds I have are 30-40degree angle I think.
Stars I use are 90-135 degree angle.
I use stars above and 10mm vertically7 on 3 sides on my 18in. x 49in. shelves that are 18in apart.
Gotta turn them off before checking out the plants or you'll see spots for a while.
Put Mylar in front of the open end.
LEDs reflect off everything...
You'll walk down the hall and catch reflected beams here and there without mylar.
Gotta cover your shelve fronts that open into the room or you'll be sorry.
 
As I said my shelves were the same Lux as outdoors in the sun...35,000 or so lux. (at the 18 in. away from my panels ) and in the open outdoors when I measured it one time...
That was here at about noon if I remember right on a clear day.
 
Oh ya,Data sheets Lie,get a Multi Meter.
 
I use this one from Harbor Freight.
It WAS $39.00 at the time...
Recommended by a Gov. workplace inspector.
 
http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-digital-multimeter-98674.html
 
Might not want to use it for some delicate stuff,but good for what I need it for.
 
"Gotta turn them off before checking out the plants or you'll see spots for a while." TOO FUNNY!!
I'll shop around. The meter linked can be had for $25-$30 if you look hard enough. Kinda Swiss army knife of multimeters.
 
Probably so about the meter.
Actually a good analogy...
 
An affordable,and accurate enough meter for what it is sold for.What I use it for.
Not for delicate stuff I'd guess.
 
Just posting What works for me over the years.
At the time I bought what I could find that was recommended at the time...
 
All I know is it works for me.
 
Price is whatever you want to pay.
I needed a semi reliable meter,this one had a $10.00 off coupon and was recommended FOR WHAT I needed it to do.
 
So far,it works great.
Harbor Freight also takes stuff back,no questions asked.
I can get to 2 of their stores that are close to where I live.
 
A LOT of the guys here at work,say it is great for what they use it for.
 
They have other more accurate stuff for delicate tasks.
 
I used $39 as the price it was advertised price.At the time after tax etc.
 
If I posted the 39 price without the 10 bucks off thing I got ,I'd catch crap for the saying I paid 29 bucks...Since the add I posted was $59 or whatever $.
I'm sure other meters or vendors cost less if you look around.
 
I don't regret buying mine.
 
I see IF you like mine,a few $ doesn't make a difference.
Mine is about 5yrs old.
 
NOT funny about the LEDS.
 
THEY do burn the eyeballs out.
YOU will see spots!
 
My panels/shelves are WAY too bright to look at.
 
My Shelves WILL mess with your eyes.
GOTTA TURN THEM OFF!
Probably cause eye damage if you don't turn them off after a short look at the shelves.
 
I read they might put out UV in numbers that can burn the retnas.
 
BUT after research,ONLY specially made UV ones can put out those wave lenghths.
 
Another Myth put out to sell LEDS at higher prices by giving the Chinese stuff sold as total crap by vendors that sell LEDS at 5X + the price for the same thing.I think.
 
Ya People can post whatever they want.
Including me.
My plants don't surf the net.
They just like hanging out under my LEDs.
As I said ,I only know what works for me AFTER messing around for a few years,trial and error.
Might not work for other grows....
 
I am wondering why you don't use the strip LEDs? Not big enough or the right color or strong enough?

Seems it would be easier than soldering all those single legs together...

We used several strips to illuminate some of our extruded hoppers and they were quite bright. Industrial power supply in either 12 or 24 volt, depending on what LED type was purchased. The strips were impressed into aluminum channel and fastened to a lexan cover.
 
I've posted before,I came into a few $ years ago.
I needed a better light source than the T10 (yes T10) fluoros I was using in 6500k.
Heat was the problem in my grow room.
 
I started with 3W. Leds at under 45lm..
Sold at the time.
I saw 1 watt LEDS could be had at the same and most times HIGHER Lm. at the time.Also in more Nm. than I could get in plant usable NM.
THIS WAS PROBABLY OVER 5 + years ago.
 
I First purchased THOUSANDS of 5mm LEDS in the wave lengths THE INTERNET said a plant needed.
Built a bunch of small perf boards of a lot of nm between 400nm and 600nm wavelengths.
They worked great for starts and supplimental light vertically under my T 10's. after the starts needed more light.
 
I played around with every wave length and LED I could buy for a season or 2.
I got some free $ and purchased THOUSANDS of LEDs in 10mm and Stars.
What my grow liked I used and built more of.
 
I am by no way an expert on LEDs.
I just know what eventually worked for MY grow.
 
I do KNOW that I can run my LEDS more efficient if I had known more about electronics.
The LM.. power regulators suck as far as being efficient.
I'm going to change my power trip as soon as I can afford to change things out.
A good friend assures me he can fix things for me.
Less heat while being able to regulate NM.
With LEDs,Volts is color,amps. is brightness.
 
Any strip of LEDs I've seen are VERY low Lm.
Most aren't in the right colors.
 
As a side note,I don't screw my LEDs to the aluminium plate.I use push/pull rivets (nylon).
I was STUPID to thread screw holes.
But I live and learn.
I started from knowing nothing.
Learned what works for me...
 
Ya,IF I never won the $ I did,I'd never have had the oppertunity to play with new toys-LEDS.
 
I'm not sure what you are talking about.Light strips?
The light tape things?
 
I have been given several White light panels from LED displays or whatever to play with.
Most tapes were very dim compaired to stars etc.
 
Most were white light-don't know what nm.
 
None,so far were in the LM or NM plants liked.
All looked very bright to the eye.
BUT as with a lot of light sources,bright means little compaired to total plant usable light.
Gotta play in the same ballpark if you want to really compare light sources , power needs,PLANT usable NM and LM of plant usable light sources.
 
All I know is what I played with for my grow.
A LOT of people here are more into their grow and other light sources.
Willard knows his stuff.
But he grows his crop different than me.
I use LEDs to get starts and pure seeds,then my plants go outside.
 
I only grew a few plants(big plants) indoors to piss off the guys giving me crap about chinese and 1 watt LEDS being garbage at the time.
 
I"M NOT including Willard in the mix.
 
I was pissed about the instant EXPERTS repeating pot site stuff,guys that never used LEDS I think.
 
Actually Willard was a part of why I got into LEDs.
He spent the $ buying a few HIGH end LEDS at the time.
He had great hopes for them in white.
But they weren't better than his halides.
As I.ve said,different light sources need to be for your grow.
 
Haven't seen Willard around lately.
Cool guy.
 
just go to fastech.com and under drive some xml 2s on aluminium U profiles from ur local hardware store or get vero 10s from digikey and run them at around 350mA
 
or if u want a real light get some cree cxb3590s for your citrus-you can fruit under a few of these
 
 
but honestly 80L per watt is pretty crap for LED
 
i wouldnt settle for anything less than 140L per watt
 
 
the whole red/blue thing is over-no one does this anymore
 
basically industry leaders have developed lights so efficient that even with all that "wasted"spectrum there are still more needed photons per watt aka higher par watt than using monochromatic light sources
 
for eg cxb3590 driver at 26w  gets 207 L per watt all in par range
 
Max yield had a recent issue talking about a study on light and they found spectrum almost doesn't matter with most current light systems. Just confirming n8

Have you used the cxbs? How do cool them? Any tips or material you recommend?





N8thaniel said:
just go to fastech.com and under drive some xml 2s on aluminium U profiles from ur local hardware store or get vero 10s from digikey and run them at around 350mA
 
or if u want a real light get some cree cxb3590s for your citrus-you can fruit under a few of these
 
 
but honestly 80L per watt is pretty crap for LED
 
i wouldnt settle for anything less than 140L per watt
 
 
the whole red/blue thing is over-no one does this anymore
 
basically industry leaders have developed lights so efficient that even with all that "wasted"spectrum there are still more needed photons per watt aka higher par watt than using monochromatic light sources
 
for eg cxb3590 driver at 26w  gets 207 L per watt all in par range
 
frosty said:
Max yield had a recent issue talking about a study on light and they found spectrum almost doesn't matter with most current light systems. Just confirming n8

Have you used the cxbs? How do cool them? Any tips or material you recommend?




 
 
 
 
yeah i built all my lights for my garden i cool them on an arctic alpine pc cooler-best value and super simple
 
i have a thread on this on another site pm me if u want to read all about it
 
I'm SURE since I built my stuff YEARS ago.
New Tech. is WAY better as far as LEDs go.
I think I posted somewhere that I see a LOT of interest and great results these days using White LEDs for indoor grows.
It seems to have,from what I've read,started in Europe a few years ago.
Several people I know have been using 6000K Leds that are used to spot light fishing boats at night along with their drive way or whatever with great success.
My problem HAS always been heat.
As far as peppers go,I never had a problem with NM in general.
I DO see plants I grow under the RED spectrum as being mini hedges.Under mostly blue they seem to grow bigger plants with the same branching but less closer branching.
I add more blue a few weeks before I put my plants outside-a method to my madness. :)
Might not be due to NM though,might be LM or light penetration.
I like more red for my starts.
I had a Kitchen plant that was 5ft tall and 6ft wide growing in a 24in. X 11in. X 8in. setup.
That is the plant I grew to piss off the guys who said 1watt LEDS sucked.
At the same time I had a Galopagoense,that people said was hard to grow and get pods from that was a hedge under 1 watters and in a 5 Gal. Hydro drip thing I made.
 
AS I SAID,my stuff is very old,the Tech at the time.
AFTER my 1 watt stuff fries,I'll go to white LEDs.
Much cheaper and very much more efficient these days from what I've been told.
My data on MY stuff isn't of much use these days.
BUT I do think my observations on K - red and Blue are of value.
For me I like more red for starts-growing hedges in 4 1/2in. pots.
Then go to more blue to get the hedge into growing larger after all the tight branching happens.
I don't think Peppers are light specific as far as growing or fruiting goes.
LM to me means more.
I just like my mini hedges to go outside and only grow a couple indoors for pure seeds.
ALSO I don't have to harden off my plants with LEDs.
It might be the massive LM or whatever,I don't know.
 
Just my observations about what I found through trial and error.
 
I like discussions like this.
As Tech evolves things I went by change.
Efficiencey etc.
Too bad my 1 watt LEDS will probably not frie for a few more years or I'd save my sheckles to buy some new toys. LOL
 
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