Beginner mite help

[ChillnInAus]

Its my first year having a solid crack at growing peppers. Plants have been powering since germination in mid July.
About 3 weeks ago I noticed new growth was coming in deformed and thought (like all beginners) I had a cal deficiency. 
After reading some posts from this site from others that have had the same issue, and them finding out that it was mites, made me spray for mites and order a ebay hand microscope to confirm if it was.
 
I couldnt find any neem locally here except for one called EcoNeem which had warnings not to use on fruit/veg, so I used an organic soap spray that I mixed at the weakest strength recommended for the first application. 
 

 
It seemed to be going to work as it killed ants on contact. I also cut off all twisted new growth.
I re-applied the organic spray again 5 days after to kill any new arrivals or newly hatched. 
 
So 2 weeks on and the new growth is still funky with some now curling right up and dieing. 
Here is a pic of the worst plants....... wow they look even worse in the pic than real life.
 

 
  
My ebay microscope finally turned up and I have spent an hour going over the good leaves and the deformed looking for mites (not sure what they really look like) or eggs.
At first I found this, not sure what it is ? Couldnt see it with the naked eye.
 

 
Then when zooming in as tight as I could I found lots of dark marks/damage from little suckers?? maybe?? or maybe just normal??
 

 
And when still zoomed right in found this sitting on one of the dark marks.
 

 
 
I have around 50 peppers in containers all grouped together, 
The Habaneros and Scotch Bonnets have shown NO signs of this, it is only affecting Jalapenos, Cayenne's and Thai birds eyes??
 
So , finally my question, 
Am I looking at mites and their damage? 
Could I assume the lack of finding much after an hour with the microscope that the spray is doing its job ?
Maybe I should go for a hard core prune back as the mite toxin is now in the ends of each branch?
 
Or should I just go to the pub for a beer?

 

[Bou]

It does looks like spider mite to me; If so you should see some tiny webs too. There is many products you can use to get rid of them but personally I prefer using (oranic) products that countain pyrethrin like Safer's EndALL. Take note that they can spread quite easily and fast inside the house so you better keep a close look at your other household plants in the upcomming weeks as they thrive in our indoor dryer environment.
 
But first, you definitely should go to the pub and have that beer... Cheers and good luck!

 

[ChillnInAus]

Thanks Bou, yes it does look like a spider mite. With how bad all the new growth is when I looked under the microscope I was expecting to find hundreds of them but only found the one.
I spent another hour this morning with the microscope and couldnt see any more of them or any signs of webs.
This was the only living critter I found.
 

 
 
Anyway I have cut all new growth branches down about 4 inches and topped them all heavily.
 
 

 
 
The high quality mix they are planted in supposedly has enough slow release fert. to last up to 9 months so I have never added anything to them. I dont know if its a coincidence or not but all the funky growth came with the buds forming. The plants with no buds yet dont seem to be affected ?
Have spoken to the manufactures that make the mix and they doubt the plants would be lacking cal/mag in this mix after 3 months or so.
 
I have some Chill Focus fertilizer that has cal/mag added so am considering giving the a weak diluted feed of this if the new growth still come in curled.

 

[Powelly]

Hey mate,
Try spraying the neem daily. It works by disrupting the reproductive cycle so daily spraying for a month will kill them off entirely. 

 

[Max Nihil]

One of the first things I do with plants that may have mites and aphids is give the plants a good spray with plain water. If you have a spray attachment on your kitchen sink that can work. A hose or a spray bottle works fine too.

Spraying this way doesn't kill mites or aphids but it does dislodge most and reduce the population. I have found it to help.

I am using a product with piperonyl butoxide and pyrethrins and a low amount of clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil. The piperonyl and pyrethrin content kills the eggs of insects in addition to all other stages. The neem extract is mainly to kill pathogenic fungi... in this formulation.

The advantage is that I can use the aforementioned water spray, let the plants dry and then spray with the piperonyl/pyrethrins/neem extract a single time instead of needing to spray daily for a couple of weeks as mentioned above.

I have some misgivings about using an insecticide though because it kills predatory mites and they are really good at keeping the spider mite population low. Still whenever a plant comes inside from the outdoors I use the spraying to prevent problems with bugs that hitch a ride indoors on the plants.

It is unusual to bring a plant indoors and not have a bug outbreak unless you treat the plants.

 

[Max Nihil]

 
 
The high quality mix they are planted in supposedly has enough slow release fert. to last up to 9 months so I have never added anything to them. I dont know if its a coincidence or not but all the funky growth came with the buds forming. The plants with no buds yet dont seem to be affected ?
Have spoken to the manufactures that make the mix and they doubt the plants would be lacking cal/mag in this mix after 3 months or so.
 
I have some Chill Focus fertilizer that has cal/mag added so am considering giving the a weak diluted feed of this if the new growth still come in curled.

I would supplement Ca anyway.
I use several fertilisers with Mg so I just use prilled gypsum in my potting mixes.

It works well although a CalMag fertilizer for commercial plant production makes for faster growth in many cases.

 

[ChillnInAus]

Thanks Max Nihil, I'll add a bit if CalMag, I was just been cautious of "over loving" my plants.
Either the soap spray I used did an amazing job as I cant find much with the microscope or mites may not be the main issue of my leaf curl.

 

[acs1]

Well, with the utmost respect, after reading this thread, imo what works in the dry high mtn deserts of the USA might not be the best for sub tropical climates like we live in...
 
I use/have a bottle of premixed END ALL, for spot sprays, introducing new plants to my garden. its strong stuff and does work. But for 50 plants like you have, I can only find it in 32oz bottles for $10. For 50 plants it would take many bottles 5-10..? for a couple of total garden sprays. Neem is a fraction of the cost, works just as well and less toxic imo.
 
My suggestion is to order some cold pressed neem and Dr Boners peppermint soap from amazon. While waiting spray with what ever you got to try and keep them in control. Don't try to wash the mites off, that might work good for aphids, not mites.
 
Once you get the cp neem get a nice 2 gallon sprayer and mix up 2 overflowing tbs of neem to 1 tbs Dr Boners to 2 gallon of water. Take apart the nozzle and clean the nozzle before every spray. Mix the neem soap in a small container with a cup of very warm water and make sure to complexity emulsify it the best as possible with a paint stirrer or similar. shake the ever living crap out of it mixing it in a gal of warm water, then finally another gal of water. Sounds like more of a pia than it actually is...
 
Do every plant in your garden regardless if they show signs of mites or not.  With a dripping drenching spray under/over/all leafs and stems and surface of media keep shaking the sprayer constantly for best results. Do this at least a few times. Maybe second spray 4-5 days after first spray.
 
Keep in mind once cp neem is mixed, it has a very short half life, its no good after a few hours so use all you mix.
 
Or maybe follow your above fellow country mates recommendation of spray routine for your climate/area..? He mite know your type of local pests the best...
 
Whatever you do, do it quick, don't let mites linger...
 
jmo

 

[ChillnInAus]

Thanks asc1 for the advice, I really appreciate it.
I have been spraying all plants every 4 or 5 days since I thought it might be mites with the soap based spray, I havent managed to find any sign of them using the microscope, havent seen any eggs or webs etc. 
I have only ever seen one that others agree looks like a spider mite
 
To do the type of damage like in the above photos, would it take a large amount of them infesting the plant, or could just a couple of them do it. 
Feel like Im spraying for something that I cant see is there? But have what looks like the symptoms.
 
I am ordering some cold press neem and Dr Boners peppermint soap today. 
Thanks mate.

 

[Max Nihil]

Well, with the utmost respect, after reading this thread, imo what works in the dry high mtn deserts of the USA might not be the best for sub tropical climates like we live in...
 

For the record I was certified as a professional in the green industry in Utah 25 years ago and have experience growing dozens of different genre of plants in several climates, States, elevations and USDA zones as well as indoors and in greenhouses. My nickname amongst people IRL is Plant Man.

None of my advice is specific to a climate or area
I don't know what End All is but I suspect it is a product you sell?

It is unfortunate that it doesn't come in a concentrated form that can be diluted for use since not everybody wants to ingest systemic insecticides like cold pressed neem.

I'm trained in sales and understand how it works and how it represents a conflict of interest particularly in terms of image and the presentation of expertise, which is an important aspect of marketing.

That aside cold pressed neem oil will work fine. The Bonners soap isn't really needed with the neem but people like to use it because it makes them feel like they are doing something organically. Without neem the Bonners soap can be used diluted and at low concentration to help control mites, thrips and Aphis.

If you are not ingesting the Capsicum material or do not mind eating or feeding other people rather low amounts of systemic insecticide that may or may not be harmful then neem is an excellent choice. I've often used it for ornamental plants but to be on the safe side I would not use it on anything edible.

The active ingredient of neem is not even a single thing and it varies chemically and can contain a wide variety of chemicals as well as things like aflatoxin containing molds and unsurprisingly neem oil has been linked to liver damage and organ failure in some cases. Studies also show that it varies chemically from batch to batch making it unpredictable and not standardized. Companies do their best to standardize it by extracting the water soluble portion and then adding it back in at a set % but that doesn't account for chemical variation nor eliminate risks of toxicity.

There are also several molecules in neem that are oil soluble and active against arthropods in various ways and those are found in clarified hydrophobic extracts of neem oil, which is a standardized product that is considered food safe and lacks the risks of other neem based preparations and is considered less toxic to people, but it is also less toxic to arthropods like mites and various insects.

Having been one and knowing many of them I would take anything a salesman says with copious grains of salt even when they are not directly profiting from their suggestions. They frequently misrepresent, fail to include or downplay information that doesn't fit into their sales and suggestion schemes and I've noticed that this is especially true for certain members of this forum, although such people are not unique to this forum and can be found across the internet.

Cold pressed neem works quite well but there is more to it than that.

In my opinion it is better to have accurate information with no sales based biased and make an educated choice when it comes to insecticides and plants that will be ingested or used topically. Perhaps I am wrong about that?

Some here certainly think so.

 

[Pr0digal_son]

For the record I was certified as a professional in the green industry in Utah 25 years ago and have experience growing dozens of different genre of plants in several climates, States, elevations and USDA zones as well as indoors and in greenhouses. My nickname amongst people IRL is Plant Man.

I only grow a couple plants in my backyard but I think you mean genera,Mr. Plant.

 

[Pr0digal_son]

O.P., Wettable sulfur is a decent choice when dealing with Broad,Russet and Two- Spotted spider mites.

 

[Max Nihil]

I only grow a couple plants in my backyard but I think you mean genera,Mr. Plant.

You are right, the word changed from genre to genera although in archaic use genre literally means genus. I end up using a lot of Latin words and forget to use the modern anglo versions of them. I read too many old texts.

 

[Max Nihil]

You are right, the word changed from genre to genera although in archaic use genre literally means genus. I end up using a lot of Latin words and forget to use the modern anglo versions of them. I read too many old texts.

I was wrong... The word genre means type or kind and the proper word for me to have used would have been genres, the plural of genre and thus meaning "types" or "kinds"... genera was not the correct word.

I apologize for my confusion about this.
My mistake.

Thank you Pr0digal_son for bringing that to my intention. Anglicised Latin words are a bit tricky.

 

[acs1]

Thanks asc1 for the advice, I really appreciate it.
I have been spraying all plants every 4 or 5 days since I thought it might be mites with the soap based spray, I havent managed to find any sign of them using the microscope, havent seen any eggs or webs etc. 
I have only ever seen one that others agree looks like a spider mite
 
To do the type of damage like in the above photos, would it take a large amount of them infesting the plant, or could just a couple of them do it. 
Feel like Im spraying for something that I cant see is there? But have what looks like the symptoms.
 
I am ordering some cold press neem and Dr Boners peppermint soap today. 
Thanks mate.

After looking at your pics/damage more carefully, looks like your main pest is/was cyclamen mites or broad mites, imo.. As spider mites cause mostly pin holes, curled leafs, yellow dropping leafs, not deformed new growth like seen in your pics.Your type damage around my parts(sFL) is strictly caused by broad mites
 
You also mite have spider mites for a compound pest problem, not uncommon at all. Around here it all starts with white fly or aphids bringing the mites in on their legs... 
 
With anything less than a total out of control infestation its hard to see the little almost transparent dome like little broad mites. And it doesn't take but a few dozen or so to stop/deform the plants new growth area. They hide in the smallest of cracks and crevices buried deep in new growth budding areas. They are micro, need at least 40x power scope/lupe to spot them.
 
Next time you prune off damaged growth from mites, put it right in a zip lock clear plastic bag. Once in the bag try to manipulate it flat and spread out the bud new growth area wide open, then look at those crevice/crack areas with your scope on at least 40 power to find them. Broad mite larvae have 3 sets of legs, the adults have 4 sets, both almost transparent. Looking with a low power scope or the wrong lighting it looks like they lay eggs almost inside your plants new growth tissues.
 
But not to worry, a spray routine will eradicate them. Use whatever pesticide/miticide you choose as they all seem to work fairly well.
The more important aspect when using the less toxic non nuclear pesticides is getting your spray to drench the area they hide in. Its harder than many think.
 
I hold the new growth area with 1 hand while spraying directly into it, getting all new growth areas, under/over all leafs, and especially the flowers/buds. If you drop some flowers so be it, they'll grow back fast once mites are gone...
 
 I've proven this to myself with my scope multiple times. If I don't spray like this they migrate into the flowers crevices to get away from the miticide. If you don't penetrate drench the seemingly healthy flowers/buds, you can find a hundred or more of them hunkering down deep in the flowers cracks/crevices. Some might be almost dead, some not at all. And all it takes to continue your mite problem is one broad mite that didn't get a snout full of your spray, ready to lay her eggs and find an area missed by your spray to lay/feed on...
 
You can see the same aphid pest behavior without magnification, I'll try to find 1 of my old pics I've posted here of that. Below pic is day after a neem spray not drenching penetrating spray into/on the flowers. Although didn't try to avoid the flowers while spraying just didn't concentrate on them.
 The inside and crevices/cracks of flower have even more aphids on the inside than the pic shows on the outside. Many/most are dead. Mites do the same if you don't penetrate/drench the flowers. Just using this pic as an example as its easy to see aphids without magnification other than the camera, and they do exhibit the same exact migrate to flowers after/during a spray...
 
jmo
 

 

[Max Nihil]

It really doesn't get more accurate and informative than does the ↑ above post (#15) by acs1.

My advice is to follow that advice.

 

[ChillnInAus]

I really appreciate the info acs1, if it wasn't for this site and guys like you offering up advice I would have gone down the road of thinking its a deficiency of some kind and done more harm than good like most starting out.
 
The plants I viscously cut right back are now covered in lots of very small light green new growth, too early to tell if its going to be all funky as well from the previous mite attack. 
 
I will post some pics of the new growth in a few days once the leaf's are bigger to show the results. Hopefully cutting right back and spraying every 5 days has done the job.

 

[Yumyumyellow]

That's thrips. 
It's not uncommon to have a couple different pests at the same time- you probably have all of the things and that's why it's so frustrating.
Also, the soap and neem work well together because neem is oil, soap is a surfactant and helps emulsify the oil droplets while you're spraying and the peppermint oil is an effective synergistic insecticide. 
Everything else these guys recommended is perfect.
 
My background is Virginia Tech Crop and Soil Environmental Science, Agronomy and Entomology Specialization
 
 

 

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[Max Nihil]

I could be mistaken but I believe that neem oil preparations do have some content that acts as a surfactant, which is why neem oil contains both hydrophobic and hydrophilic molecules in a mixture.

That being said I often use a small amount of liquid soap to help things mix and stick better although I haven't actually used it with neem products. I have seen some products include very small amounts of clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil in their formulation as an emulsifier.

A bit of soap certainly can't hurt though would likely further decrease the surface tension of the mix... wouldn't it? I am not certain if it is actually necessary with neem but it is still useful for that purpose nevertheless.

I am very envious of people who are able to attend classes on agricultural and botanical sciences as well as on taxonomy. I was able to study vascular plant taxonomy in a college setting about 18 years ago and I really enjoyed myself.

I read and take notes on various subjects almost every day but it just isn't the same as attending class.

 

[Pr0digal_son]

I was wrong... The word genre means type or kind and the proper word for me to have used would have been genres, the plural of genre and thus meaning "types" or "kinds"... genera was not the correct word.

I apologize for my confusion about this.
My mistake.

Thank you Pr0digal_son for bringing that to my intention. Anglicised Latin words are a bit tricky.

I've never seen that word used to describe plants. What genres of plant have you grown? Sci-fi,comedy,romance? I guess Black Pearl could be goth? I am bored with Solanaceae....deal me in.