media Best media for self watering buckets?

[theboogeyman]

Hey all,
 
I'm thinking about moving all my soil living plants into 5 gallon self watering buckets.  They currently live in Promix and are bottom fed alternately CNS17 nutes or pH adjusted water every other day.  I'm concerned that if I move the same setup into a SWB, the pH is going to get wildly off, or that the plants won't be getting a break from nutes.  Am I right to be concerned, or am I way off base?
 
p.s. - If I'm not making much sense, please bear with me.  I'm about 4 hours overdue for bed.

 

[solid7]

For "sub-irrigated planters", I find that coco is a far more reliable wicking media than peat.  That being said, what is your definition of "best"?  I mean, that's a loaded topic.  Best for what?
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If you just want something super reliable, then follow the EarthTainer recipe for  SIP media mix.
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However... the idea of feeding liquid nutrients in a SIP is really not the best way to go.  In fact, it's not really sensible, at all.  The assumption that nutrients wick up with the water in equal proportions, without falling out of suspension, is not sound.  You're sort of asking for a number of problems like that.  Some people claim it.  Great.  I tried it for awhile, absolutely didn't like my comparative results.  And I had a shit load of problems with junk in the bottom of the bucket.  I'm a huge fan of CNS17 and coco - but if you're gonna do that, you'd be better off just watering it DTW.  Coco and CNS17 is a rock star performer - especially if you use it with straight coco, no amendments (other than maybe - not even required for environs with low-mid humidity - some perlite).
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If you want to go "organic". I have found that some rabbit shit in your otherwise unadulterated coco, can make a great mix, too.  Straight water, at that point...

 

[theboogeyman]

I was afraid you were going to say that. I've had great success bottom watering with the CNS17 in promix with smaller containers, but figured it wasn't going to scale up to to 5 gallons. I'm half tempted to pick two identical plants and do one with SIP and one in a regular bucket with drain holes, but then again, I don't really feel like killing any plants :p

 

[solid7]

I grew a plant in straight coco out here in Seattle this year, and it outperformed my mixes.  It was a tomato, not a pepper.  But I find that coco coir is ridiculously forgiving on the watering - again, IF you have a climate with relatively low humidity.  
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I got this guy planted SUPER late.  All of my other ones are in decline - I've gone away for a weekend, and come back, and they're dried out, and starting to lose leaves.  But this guy is just starting to hit the gas, and bush out.  It's never gotten anything but CNS17 Grow, in its life.
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I transplanted another one that was declining, into a similar mix, but in a 5 gallon bucket, and with some biochar and rice hulls (the rest coco)  I give it half the recommended dose of CNS17, and it's starting to come back to life.
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My point being - I think you're on the right track (love your nute selection) - but don't count on the nutes to wick.  If it were recirculating, I'd say go for it.  But static, and before roots are breaching into the air space...  Nah.  

 

[solid7]

Shoulda noted, that's a dwarf tomato...  Small plant is the MO.  
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Also just wanted to note...  I have in the past, used SIPs to great effect.  However, I always water them from the top, when I'm feeding. I'll keep the reservoir topped off, but I want to run the nutrients through the media.
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If you search around this forum somewhere, you will find my "Modified Hempy Bucket".   I absolutely loathe the wastefulness of the double bucket method, so I created a system where I put perlite in the container up to just above the fill hole, and then the planting media on top of that.

 

[theboogeyman]

Yeah, you were one of several that steered me towards CNS17. I'd been using GH....Floranova? I think? The two parter, in DWC buckets with decent results, but the Kratky and soil plants didn't like it at all this year. The CNS17 was cheaper, and everything took right off, so thanks for the advice.

How do you think top watering to fill the reservoir would work until the roots get down to the bottom? That way the nutes would pass by the roots, but the soil shouldn't dry out too bad..... Or maybe I'm just dreaming. It would be nice to cut down on the daily time spent feeding, though.

 

[solid7]

Well, I've done the top watering until the roots get to the bottom routine - so I know that it works very well.  But at some point, you NEED to dump the stuff out the pee hole, and get fresh water in there.  I mean, it's mineral salts, and we all know what that does, when it accumulates.  The other side effect, is that it's algae/fungus/sludge food.  Toxic, nasty shit that doesn't need light to grow.
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There really are a ton of clever ways to get around feeding.  But I mean... are you really that averse to using a dry fertilizer?  Because they really do work the best in this system.
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If you're dead set on using liquid nutrients, just make sure that you have the fill spout in your bucket.  I don't always include one.  But it's the best way to flush them out.  I can't emphasize enough that you need to flush them out.  So you will want to consider that, and decide if it really makes the whole thing easier.

 

[theboogeyman]

*snorts coffee*. "Out the pee hole" lol. I think I'll try the top watering until the roots get long enough. I also think I probably won't nail the two buckets together. That way once a week I can dump and rinse the bottom bucket, top feed pH adjusted water, dump that the next day and refill. Still less work than I'm doing now. And if it doesn't work, you told me so
Fortunately I only plan on doing a couple of my tall/awkward plants for now, so that'll give me a test run.

 

[solid7]

I don't think you'll need to do it every week; but you'll need to be mindful of it.  Maybe every 2-3 weeks is better.  Definitely don't let it go more than a month.
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But again, as I said, having a fill spout that is plumbed straight into the reservoir, will be helpful, so you can just do a hose flush.  Let it run for about 5 minutes, and you're done.
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I actually had mine plumbed with micro-irrigation tubing, so I could purge them all at once, when I needed to.  And regardless, I always kept them topped off.  But again, I was top feeding nutrients the whole time. 

 

[theboogeyman]

I'll keep the flush idea in mind!

 

[solid7]

Open invitation: you can PM me, if you want some SIP tips.  I have built a lot of them, in many different iterations, using many different media mixes.  I've built them from desktop versions, to 55gallon drum size.  
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My full time home is in Florida, so I get lots of time, without penalty, to experiment with different growing systems.  I've always liked this subject.

 

[theboogeyman]

I'll definitely keep that in mind. My first build is going to be like the one Khang Starr posted in one of his videos - oddly enough what I had in mind to begin with. I'll try sticking with the CNS17 and we'll see how that goes. Then again, experimenting is half the fun. Wish I had a longer growing season - the one here in Michigan sucks lol.

 

[solid7]

Yeah, it sure is.  Don't be afraid to take it indoors! 

 

[theboogeyman]

If only I had the room . Hard enough starting them early when they're still in solo cups.

 

[Downriver]

...I absolutely loathe the wastefulness of the double bucket method...

 
I've been thinking about this comment since yesterday, wondering what you meant. So, I figured I'd ask today, lol.

 

[solid7]

 
I've been thinking about this comment since yesterday, wondering what you meant. So, I figured I'd ask today, lol.

 
The fact that it takes 2 buckets to make 1 single system.  It's just a waste of time, effort, and resources, to use 2 buckets for  single planter.  There are so many better ways to build these things.

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

"There are so many better ways to build these things."
 
And those would be?

 

[solid7]

Well, I already outlined one of them above.  Google "Albo Tote" for another.  Using recyclables to create air space in the bottom of a bucket is yet another.  I could go on and on.  But that double bucket method sucks, is wasteful, and takes FAR more time and effort to get to the point. (which is a cheap and functional container)
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This one is a 55 gallon drum.  I've used it for years, one of my best performers
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In fact, in this old photo, the whole front row were big Sub Irrigated Planters on active plumbing:
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Another perspective:
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Patio tomato, grown in single bucket, using method described previously:
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New start in a plumbed SIP:
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The "pee hole"
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Big SIPs can grow big plants:
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A little cleverness goes a long way with these systems.  It's not for everyone, and it's not my favorite way to do business.  But it was a great multi-year experiment, and served a purpose.

 

[fishhead]

Hey S7, I know that you are a data driven guy.  So, what is so bad about the sludge that you speak of?  
 
I've got several in the 2x buckets with no problems.  Buckets were a plenty, so, no real waste of buckets for me. I have extra. 
 
I did have one death (not attributed to the buckets) a few weeks ago, and I dumped everything out into the garden.  The soil was good.  The bottom water bucket was not clear, but, it just looked like water with a little potting soil residue in the bottom.  No goo.  No stink.  
 
Pipe water - straight to the bottom with very little going to the top.
My soil is around 50% peat, 20% vermiculite, 10% Perlite, 20% horse manure compost (1yr).
I keep my ferts low, with a little calmag, occasional MG (light), and some fish hydrolysate.  I figured that the fish would make it stinky, but after a day or two, nope.  
 
My plants seem to be doing fine with no flush.  Ever.  So, when should I be afraid of the sludge plague that you speak of?

 

[solid7]

My plants seem to be doing fine with no flush.  Ever.  So, when should I be afraid of the sludge plague that you speak of?

 
I admit that it could be climate related.  I get a lot more warm back home, for a lot more days.  But in my buckets, the sludge builds up so bad that it actually plugs the pee hole.  Plus, in general, I just don't like creating an environment that's hospitable to any bacterial growth - whether aerobic, anaerobic, or otherwise.  And finally, I'll add that that sludge houses nasty critters.  Mosquitoes, in particular, get real healthy in it.
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The big question is, do you bottom feed?
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One of the inherent dangers in bottom feeding, is a huge build-up of salts in the bottom, which will send your TDS through the roof.  I got careless a couple times, and actually lost a few plants (happened in the beginning, I also did the bottom feed thing).  I don't even really feed heavy, it just adds up. 
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If you don't bottom feed, chances are, you'll likely never have an issue with sludge.  At least not in a single growing season.
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Buckets were a plenty, so, no real waste of buckets for me. I have extra. 

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I actually have a friend who owns a restaurant, so any of those buckets you see labeled "Pickles" in my pics, are guaranteed food grade buckets, that I got for free.  I've still got a stack of 30 or more in my shed.  Yet, I just refuse to do double bucket, on principle.  I'm funny like that.  I guess I'm a little idealistic, because I've passed on the concept to people who weren't as fortunate as I've been, and they didn't have access to the resources that I do.  There have been several initiatives in the past, that have been based off of low/no cost gardening, and coming up with a better "urban" system.  I guess I just sort of hold to that ethos.  I can literally build one of my buckets with no tools, when t comes right down to it.
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Obviously, nobody has to adhere to my idealism, but I put it out there, in case anyone fancies that sort of thinking.
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Pipe water - straight to the bottom with very little going to the top.
My soil is around 50% peat, 20% vermiculite, 10% Perlite, 20% horse manure compost (1yr).
I keep my ferts low, with a little calmag, occasional MG (light), and some fish hydrolysate.  I figured that the fish would make it stinky, but after a day or two, nope.  

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That's a pretty good mix.  I tend to go with one of 2 mixes in the buckets:  70/20/10 - Coco/perlite/worm castings, or 80/20 - coco/perlite, with generous amounts of uncomposted rabbit poo. Both of those have worked exceptionally well for me.