annuum Brain Strain - Jalapeño cross question

[Spankyscolts]

I scored an accidental cross from last years grow its a Brain Strain crossed with a Jalapen. The plant is 3 1/2 tall and beautiful. Today I picked the first ripe pod and tasted it, at first I smelled Jalapeno but that was quickly overpowered by capsaicin. The taste was a bit sweet and had the hit of jalapeño and it was HOT! Here are some pics .

Here it is compared to a Billy Biker Jalapeno still on the plant.

Here it is cut in half ..

My question is this will the seeds of these two be viable ? Also if I wanted to grow these out and try to stabilize them what is the process ? I just think its kind of a cool pod in that it hints at the Jalapeno taste with the heat of a Super . Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Nightshade]

If you want to stabilize the standard is 8 seasons and since its yours you choose the phenotype you want to stabilize.

 

[MGOLD86]

NS is right, the standard is about F8, which could take some time.  Also, it is really up in the air because it could take a little less or a little longer.  You can go about this dozens of ways, but if I were doing it this is what I would do.  (This is no way meant to be the right way, or what you should do, just my opinion and how I would go about it.)
 
1.  Keep seeds and photos from all the phenotypes on the current plant that you like and would like the future pod to look like.
2.  Grow a bunch of plants next season (at least 3, but the more the better).
3.  Share seeds with a couple (maybe 3-5) of your friends or growers that you know will take it seriously. Make sure they are willing to grow a couple (at least 2) plants.
4.  Each season photograph and select the phenotype that resembles your end goal, and coordinate with the other growers.
5.  Follow it through each season until it is stable. 
6. Once it is stable give it an official name!
 
Good Luck, sounds like a cool cross.

 

[armac]

If you do plan on stabilizing, I would suggest not selling the seeds until they are stable. Too many people already doing that, and their reputations are suffering.

 

[Spankyscolts]

Thanks everyone yea I heard 8 years was the norm. I only wish they were a little longer. Perhaps Ill share a few pods first to gather some other opinions. I also want to see what a green one taste like since folks ofter eat Jalapenos green.

NS is right, the standard is about F8, which could take some time.  Also, it is really up in the air because it could take a little less or a little longer.  You can go about this dozens of ways, but if I were doing it this is what I would do.  (This is no way meant to be the right way, or what you should do, just my opinion and how I would go about it.)
 
1.  Keep seeds and photos from all the phenotypes on the current plant that you like and would like the future pod to look like.
2.  Grow a bunch of plants next season (at least 3, but the more the better).
3.  Share seeds with a couple (maybe 3-5) of your friends or growers that you know will take it seriously. Make sure they are willing to grow a couple (at least 2) plants.
4.  Each season photograph and select the phenotype that resembles your end goal, and coordinate with the other growers.
5.  Follow it through each season until it is stable. 
6. Once it is stable give it an official name!
 
Good Luck, sounds like a cool cross.

Should I select like pods or just any pod with a positive trait ?

 

[Nightshade]

Keep collecting pods with only your idea of the correct shape size etc. Jalapeno with heat of a brain sounds pretty cool

 

[Spankyscolts]

Keep collecting pods with only your idea of the correct shape size etc. Jalapeno with heat of a brain sounds pretty cool

But do I only collect same type of pods to make them uniform or select any pod with something I like in it? Also seeds from a Chinese and Annum cross will they grow out .. Well I guess this one did ?

 

[Nightshade]

select any pod shape you like but keep them separate to help speed up stabalization like bs x jal #1(bumpy) as an example. they will be partially fertile when first crossed so the f1 will be half fertile and half not.

 

[HAJ]

But do I only collect same type of pods to make them uniform or select any pod with something I like in it? Also seeds from a Chinese and Annum cross will they grow out .. Well I guess this one did ?

 
For each generation, you take seeds from the plant, which you like the best.
Further, you must isolate the flowers, that you want to produce the seeds of next generation. Both from other chilies and from siblings. This is to ensure you only get genes from the plant you selected for stabalization.

 

[MGOLD86]

Yea, I would see what pod shapes the plant spits out, and then grab a few that you like and just separate like nightshade mentioned (JXBS Bumpy, JXBS Elongate, smooth, etc.)

 

[Nightshade]

Also another tip if you find a really cool phenotype make sure to clone, overwinter, or both. until you can make sure the seeds grow to that phenotype so you don't lose it forever.

 

[Dulac]

I've been wanting to breed a hotter jalapeno. If you want help growing them out, let me know. The seeds should be viable.

Edit:
 

Yea, I would see what pod shapes the plant spits out, and then grab a few that you like and just separate like nightshade mentioned (JXBS Bumpy, JXBS Elongate, smooth, etc.)

Individual pods on a single plant have the same genetic makeup as other pods, unless they were crossed. It doesn't matter what pod you select from a single plant. That's why you need many plants to get good phenotypes. Grow as many F2s as you can.


You could also backcross it with a jalapeno or brain strain to speed up stabilization or get more of the jalapeno or brain strain traits.

 

[PepperWhisperer]

 
 
Individual pods on a single plant have the same genetic makeup as other pods

The pods are the same, but the seeds inside have genetics from the male and female parents of that pod. The female genes will always be from the plant that made the pod. The male genes are carried in the pollen. There is a good chance the pollen came from the same plant, but that is only guaranteed if you make sure to isolate the plant or individual flowers to prevent pollen from a different plant getting in there. If you don't want to (or it is too late to) isolate flowers this year, collect seeds from a bunch of different pods on the plant and grow out one or more from each pod next year. When they pod up you repeat again, selecting only pods from the specific plant(s) that show the traits you want.
 
If you are going to back-cross or intentionally cross different individuals in the same generation, you will need to get more technical with your pollination methods. There are a couple of really good threads on here demonstrating how to perform controlled cross pollination. Maybe someone else has a link?

 

[Spankyscolts]

 
For each generation, you take seeds from the plant, which you like the best.
Further, you must isolate the flowers, that you want to produce the seeds of next generation. Both from other chilies and from siblings. This is to ensure you only get genes from the plant you selected for stabalization.

Crap I already did nothing special to protect this plant should I clone it or perhaps just cover it now? Tomorrow aim having a couple other folks taste it to get additional opinions.

I've been wanting to breed a hotter jalapeno. If you want help growing them out, let me know. The seeds should be viable.

Edit:
 

Individual pods on a single plant have the same genetic makeup as other pods, unless they were crossed. It doesn't matter what pod you select from a single plant. That's why you need many plants to get good phenotypes. Grow as many F2s as you can.


You could also backcross it with a jalapeno or brain strain to speed up stabilization or get more of the jalapeno or brain strain traits.

TWO questions first off if all have the same genetic make up why do I need to grow out so many F2's .. something's not computing in my head. If they are all the same why select pods at all ?

Second question I actually thought about crossing this again with a Billy Biker please explain that process to me. My idea pod would be a little longer, have the traditional jalapeño flavor but with overwhelming heat. It would work greenies red like a traditional jalapeño. I think this first pod is almost perfect except it could be a little longer and just a little more jalapeño flavor !

 

[PepperWhisperer]

See my post above. The pods on a plant are all the same genetics, but the seeds inside are not. Even if you fully isolate, the next generation are all "brothers and sisters" not "twins". The brothers are more closely related than humans or other animals because the same individual is both mother and father, but there is still considerable room for variation.

 

[Dulac]

See my post above. The pods on a plant are all the same genetics, but the seeds inside are not. Even if you fully isolate, the next generation are all "brothers and sisters" not "twins". The brothers are more closely related than humans or other animals because the same individual is both mother and father, but there is still considerable room for variation.

That is true. The problem I see is people thinking the traits pods have on the same plant correlate with the seeds inside. The seeds are not clones of each other of course. If you get an extra small or large pod on the same plant, saving the seeds from that particular pod doesn't select small or large pods. The whole plant needs to be taken into consideration when selecting.

 

[HAJ]

Crap I already did nothing special to protect this plant should I clone it or perhaps just cover it now? 

 
Just cover it up and use seeds from pods pollinated after being covered,

 

[EBHarvey]

 
1.  Keep seeds and photos from all the phenotypes on the current plant that you like and would like the future pod to look like.
 

 
 
This step is unnecessary  -  every pod is genetically identical whether they look the same or not.  The genetic variation is between the seeds, so 100 seeds collected from 10 pods or 100 seeds collected from 2 pods will possess between them the same genetic diversity.
 
 

But do I only collect same type of pods to make them uniform or select any pod with something I like in it? 
 

 
This year doesn't matter - see above.  In future years, F2, F3, etc. you'll be wanting to select for the same trait each year, saving seeds from the plant that possesses those traits but again, it doesn't matter which pod the seeds come from on any particular plant.  
 
 

TWO questions first off if all have the same genetic make up why do I need to grow out so many F2's .. something's not computing in my head. If they are all the same why select pods at all ?

Second question I actually thought about crossing this again with a Billy Biker please explain that process to me. My idea pod would be a little longer, have the traditional jalapeño flavor but with overwhelming heat. It would work greenies red like a traditional jalapeño. I think this first pod is almost perfect except it could be a little longer and just a little more jalapeño flavor !
 

 
Although every jalepeno/brain strain cross will be genetically identical, assuming both parents were truly genetically stable, each seed from this F1 plant will contain a different combination of genes from the original parent plants, so each seed you grow out will produce a plant that's genetically different from the rest.  The more F2's you grow the more candidates you'll have for selection and the better the chance you'll get something close to what you're looking for.  Only grow 3, 4, 5 F2's and you're extremely unlikely to get one that just happens to match the F1 - you might get a similar taste in one, a similar color in another, but you're not going to get the same mix of every trait you think is cool about your F1.  There are so many genes factoring into things that you really should be growing out hundreds of F2s and subsequent generations, but of course that's difficult for anyone to pull off, so just grow as many as you can.
 
 
You can certainly back-cross to one of the parents, but keep in mind that this too is going to increase the amount of time before you have something stable and increase the number of plants you'll need to grow in order to find and isolate those traits since the new F1 -  (Biker Billy X Brain Strain F1) X Biker Billy - will be 75% jalepeno and you'll have to go looking for those brain strain characteristics.  My advice is to grow out as many F2s as you can before you start back-crossing.  By growing out the F2 you can at least get some idea of what genes are actually present and how they interact with one another, which are dominant, which are recessive, because the F1 is only showing you the dominant genes from each parent and there are going to be a whole bunch of recessive genes popping up in the F2 generation.  Those F2's will make much, much better candidates for additional crosses.  

 

[Spankyscolts]

Let me throw a Monkey Wrench into all this. So far the folks Ive given this pepper to have went gaga over its taste it is sweet and juicy, very juicy and has a nice heat but what gets you is the flavor. Im now wondering if was a Jalapeno it crossed with OR a Carmen. I grew Carmen's last year to use on my salsa I didn't even know they could cross with supers so I did nothing to seperate them. This mutt has a super sweet taste like a Carmen. Now here is the problem. The Carmen is a sweet hybird. Since its a hybird that complicates this cross quite a bit if its indeed a parent correct? These things are succulent sweet, then damn HOT. It's taste is awesome so I definately want to perserve this.

 

[HAJ]

Let me throw a Monkey Wrench into all this. So far the folks Ive given this pepper to have went gaga over its taste it is sweet and juicy, very juicy and has a nice heat but what gets you is the flavor. Im now wondering if was a Jalapeno it crossed with OR a Carmen. I grew Carmen's last year to use on my salsa I didn't even know they could cross with supers so I did nothing to seperate them. This mutt has a super sweet taste like a Carmen. Now here is the problem. The Carmen is a sweet hybird. Since its a hybird that complicates this cross quite a bit if its indeed a parent correct? These things are succulent sweet, then damn HOT. It's taste is awesome so I definately want to perserve this.

It's certainly no less boring! But still an annum X chinense hybrid.
 
The effects of crossing a F1 with another chili is more or less the same as a "normal" F2. You get a mixed set of genes from the F1 parent and a fixed set of genes from the stable parent. I.e. all seeds will carry a different set of genes. Theoretically the offspring plants should, on average, tend to be more like the stable parent, but again that really depends on which parent has genes that dominates more than the other. If you only grew 1 plant, and are happy with the result, forget the theory  and grow out the as many plants of the next generation as you can. Select the best and repeat. When you reached a generation where all the plants seem the same, you have a new variety