COLD PRESSED NEEM OIL

acs1

acs1

What ratio are you guys using for your mix.?
 
I've been using 1tbs (1/2oz) cold pressed neem oil and 1.5tsp(1/4oz) soap (Dr Boners), per gal water.
 
Just got some new cold pressed neem oil and on its bottle the ratio for folair spray is,
2 tbs(1oz) cold pressed neem oil & 2 tsp(1/3oz) soap, per gal. water
Thats double what I've been using.
 
Whats the correct ratio to use.? Do different pure cold pressed neem oils have different strengths..?
 
If I can safely use a stronger mix to leave a more lasting deterrent that would be nice.
What will to strong a mix do...?
 
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I use 1tbsp neem and 1tsp soap per gallon. Seemed to work fine.
 
My only issue with regular neem spraying is that over time the oil becomes black so you get these black spots on your pods. They come off with a little soapy water but it's a royal pain to scrub 100s of peppers!
 
Thanks for the reply Siv, much appreciate your expertise...
 
Ya that ratio, 1tbs/1tsp is what I used all last year. It seemed to work good. What i found after spraying when cleaning out the sprayer, were dime size globules of white-ish non emulsified oil, not a lot but 6-8 globules were always on the bottom of my 4gallon backpack sprayer after the last spritz was gone, globs were there. And I mixed it/emulsified it carefully/seemingly completely.
 
Figured that meant at times I was spraying globs of oil instead of an even emulsified neem mix, and other times mostly water....  So I started shaking it almost non stop while spraying, PIA,but  that seemed to cure the globs 70%...
    So this year figured I'd try 1tbs neem/1.5tsp soap per gallon to try and emulsify the oil better, to prevent globs and needing the constant shake. Well it worked, 1tbs neem/1.5 soap emulsified in warm water, no more globules on bottom when done, with normal shake, normal mix method.
 
Been doing that all season with decent results. Tempted to try the recommended dose on the new bottle. In this pest bug apocalypse we're having here this year, a little more power might(?) work better...?
 
I'll have to look but don't remember seeing any black spots on pods, ever.
 
I was doing 3-4tbs/gallon by the end of a super bad infestation in my dad's garden earlier in the year. Not sure if the increase made a difference because it got out of hand on some plants despite being sprayed every other day. Only thing that saved the peppers was giving up on the Zucchini and letting them become sacrificial plants.
 
Another tbs or two wont hurt. 
 
I'm full on convinced bugs in south FL have become damn near immune to everything off the shelf now. 
 
evolka said:
Can shampoo be used instead of soap?
Click to expand...
I think the reason dish soap is preferred is so that you can eat the plant after. I wouldn't want to be eating shampoo!
 
The instructions on your neem oil look pretty similar to what I use. I've only just begun this year, but my ratio is 500 ml or about 16 oz of water with 1-2 teaspoons of neem oil, 1-1.5 teaspoons of dish soap, and 1/2 teaspoon of peppermint oil. 
 
So far I've had good results with taking care of the pests and I haven't noticed any plant damage.
 
I Treated this plant with 1 tablespoon of neem oil, 1 tablespoon of shampoo in 2 liters of water.
 

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Siv said:
I think the reason dish soap is preferred is so that you can eat the plant after. I wouldn't want to be eating shampoo!
Click to expand...
 
Dish soap is absolutely NOT preferred.  Never spray detergent on plants.
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And, to head this off at the pass, I keep hearing people on here say they do it, and never had any problem.  I would be happy to show anyone here what happens when you do it.  PM me.  I'll show you how to amazingly fuck up your peppers with either your choice of dish soap (detergent) or heavy doses of soap (yes, Dr. Bronners).
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I would go so far as to suggest that it's much safer to emulsify with a wetting agent.  I posted a couple in the forum a year or two back.  I experimented and found them to be just as effective for emulsifying, but with none of the side effects of soap or detergent.  Those side effects are: detergent strips leaf coating, and opens the plant up to disease or scalding, and soap has an extremely high pH, which can cause severe leaf curling. (I'm guessing it's by way of run off, but it may also be absorption)
 
Ration of 1Tbsp/gal is recommended for cold pressed Neem, because too much Neem can be phytotoxic, just like applying in the daylight hours.  It's got a half life, and that dose is very safe for even Florida levels of sun, while remaining effective.
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I don't really ever like to dose anything to max. 
 
Interesting article, not sure I can fully understand it...
 
https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1319&title=Using%20Surfactants,%20Wetting%20Agents,%20and%20Adjuvants%20in%20the%20Greenhouse
 
B1319-4%20-%20html.jpg

Figure 4. Horticultural oil / dishwashing liquid damage to pansies.
 
"Overcoming pesticide water solubility issues was a monumental task in the 1950s and 60s. Most pesticides were not formulated to use water as their carrier. Today, however, the majority of pesticides are formulated to use water. The waxy surfaces of many insects, fungi, and plants make it difficult for most water-based spray solutions to penetrate their target. To overcome this barrier, adjuvants have been developed. Adjuvants can determine how well a pesticide works but, when used inappropriately, they can cause crop damage. Adjuvant is a broad term describing any additive to a spray tank that enhances pesticide activity. Examples of adjuvants are surfactants, spreader stickers, crop oils, anti-foaming materials, buffering agents, and compatibility agents. Surfactants are adjuvants that facilitate and accentuate the emulsifying, dispersing, spreading, wetting, or other surface modifying properties of liquids."
 
"Many pesticides require the addition of an adjuvant, and some do not. When applying fungicides, insecticides or herbicides without a recommended adjuvant, 30 percent to 50 percent reduction in pest control can be expected. Adjuvants may cause damage to a plant if the wrong adjuvant is used or if it is used at too high a concentration. Using the correct adjuvant on a greenhouse crop is a critical decision. This bulletin is intended to describe how adjuvants differ and what adjuvants are best to use."
 
In the past I only used 70% clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil and I avoided neem oil specifically.
 
It worked very well to control whitefly, mites and aphids and I did not observe any stress to the plants. 
 
Low concentrations of detergent are not particularly harmful to plants in my experience however the amounts often suggested by various sources online often kill plants. I agree that it is better to avoid using detergent.
 
When I have used detergents in the past the amounts I use are close to 1/4 teaspoon to a gallon of water. I had no problems with this however it still isn't something I suggest. 
 
The neem oil extract works exceedingly well. I would never use any oils on plants at a concentration greater than about a dozen drops per gallon.  
 
Max Nihil said:
In the past I only used 70% clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil and I avoided neem oil specifically.
Click to expand...
I am just the opposite. I prefer to have the azadirachtin as the active ingredient. Otherwise, you can most likely find a cheaper horticultural oil.  Neem without Aza is nothing more than just oil.  In fact, your "clarified" neem extract is just a byproduct of the processes that extract the azadirachtin for other pesticides.  So it's a cheap imitation, sold at the same, or higher prices than, the cold pressed parent.  Also, the product that you prefer is just a contact pesticide, with no residual effect.
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The doses that you use in Utah for moderate insect infestations are not really adequate for Florida level infestations.  I have been experimenting with this for years, and I'm pretty firm in the 1Tbsp/gal mix. 
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The surfactant(s) that I recommend would be one of these:
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https://www.amazon.com/Coco-Wet-Wetting-Twin-Canaries-Chart/dp/B07R8KJ7X6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=coco+wet&qid=1602268362&sr=8-3
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https://www.amazon.com/Safergro-Natural-Certified-Organic-Concentrate/dp/B00HPQXVIK/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=safer+gro+wetting+agent&qid=1602268318&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-1-catcorr
 
acs1 said:
fungicides, insecticides or herbicides without a recommended adjuvant, 30 percent to 50 percent reduction in pest control can be expected. Adjuvants may cause damage to a plant if the wrong adjuvant is used or if it is used at too high a concentration. Using the correct adjuvant on a greenhouse crop is a critical decision. This bulletin is intended to describe how adjuvants differ and what adjuvants are best to use."
Click to expand...
 
And that's the key statement (in red) that we're really trying to arrive at.
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It's why detergent/dish soap is 1000% wrong, and why even soap can be sketchy.
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The first statement in the paragraph is also particularly noteworthy, and why any time I've recommended Neem advice, I've always stated that you need to emulsify it FIRST before adding it to the tank.  Neem, on its packaging, almost always recommends mixing with straight water.  But we all know what happens when you put oil and water together.
 
solid7 said:
I am just the opposite. I prefer to have the azadirachtin as the active ingredient. Otherwise, you can most likely find a cheaper horticultural oil.  Neem without Aza is nothing more than just oil.  In fact, your "clarified" neem extract is just a byproduct of the processes that extract the azadirachtin for other pesticides.  So it's a cheap imitation, sold at the same, or higher prices than, the cold pressed parent.  Also, the product that you prefer is just a contact pesticide, with no residual effect.
.
The doses that you use in Utah for moderate insect infestations are not really adequate for Florida level infestations.  I have been experimenting with this for years, and I'm pretty firm in the 1Tbsp/gal mix. 
.
The surfactant(s) that I recommend would be one of these:
.
https://www.amazon.com/Coco-Wet-Wetting-Twin-Canaries-Chart/dp/B07R8KJ7X6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=coco+wet&qid=1602268362&sr=8-3
.
https://www.amazon.com/Safergro-Natural-Certified-Organic-Concentrate/dp/B00HPQXVIK/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=safer+gro+wetting+agent&qid=1602268318&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-1-catcorr
Click to expand...
Can I replace the detergent with Control DMP by Valagro?
 
evolka said:
Can I replace the detergent with Control DMP by Valagro?
Click to expand...
 
Why would you want to do something strange like that, rather than just following a more proven, conventional approach?  Are you growing for the love of growing, or are you doing experiments?
.
To answer your question: yes, yes you can.  You can do anything that you want to do with your plants.
 
Been using Southern AG clarified neem oil occasionally when not using cold pressed.
    It has a great engineered adjuvant package that completely emulsifies the neem oil and sports spreader stickers, water wetters, surfacents, emulsifiers, all great adjuvacants/additives, and ph is perfect. It leaves leafs supple and shinny. My plants seem to respond to it like a steroid and pop out flowers and buds, standing up straight and tall... Its good stuff, but lacks the punch of cold pressed with its higher content aza to knock down more stubborn pests like mites/etc.
 
Iirr,, mixing ratio is 1-4 tbs per gallon water. With 2-4tbs recommended for mites. I've settled on 3tbs for regular preventive maintenance sprays.
 
 
 So, was trying different emulsifier agents for my cold pressed neem oil (same ones listed and recommended in this thread) instead of Dr Boners soap, but don't like any of them. And the proper ratio is all experimental, to little and globs form in sprayer, just a little to much and leafs curl. Can't find the right ratio, almost seems like there isn't one. My belief is 1 emulsifier isn't enough to correctly do the job. Needs a combination of emulsifier, surfacants, wetters, stickers, spreaders, thickeners,etc. Something I can't figure out. When I spray, want the solution to be sprayed/spread evenly, easily absorbed, covers/sticks too leafs surface completely, and mix thoroughly with water not separating, thus being 100% effective, instead of a waste of time or destructive. To me, 50% effective is a waste of time as 50% of most pests is still out of control.
 
Did an experiment. Have 6 test plants that I could not cull. They were the runts of the litter. A few SB, 1 Jala, 2 Fatalii. Planted them in smaller than ideal extra containers with old media refreshed with a little worm castings and dry org fert. They seemed to grow good and out grew their runt status. I've topped them a couple times to keep them on the smaller side.  I use them for test purposes..
 
 
So, decided to see if the Southern AG clarified neem with its great adjuvant package, had enough emulsifier left to emulsify another 1tbs of cold pressed Neem. It did. Mixed 3tbs Southern AG clarified neem + 1 tbs Cold Pressed Neem to 1 gallon water,, worked great on my test plants. Been 2 days now, No leaf curl, no globs in sprayer and leafs looked shinny healthy standing up, with flowers popping out everywhere...
Haven't tried this on my garden yet, but will give it a go probably this week. Think it will be ok..?
 
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