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COLD PRESSED NEEM OIL
- Thread starter acs1
- Start date
acs1 said:
When I was experimenting with the wetting agents, I did test batches, in 10 drop increments, to see what achieved total emulsification. Mind you, there was no ratio that would achieve, and maintain 100% emulsion. There was consistently ~2-5% of the oil that would fall out of suspension over the reasonable time that a spray would take. That's really nothing to be alarmed about.
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I'm not sure why/how you got leaf curl with the wetting agents listed. One of them is an aloe based product that's literally used in conjunction with foliar sprays.
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By the time you are experimenting with mixing an engineered product with cold pressed Neem, my recommendation would be to just buy AzaMax. Mix in water and be done. It's the net equivalent of mixing cold pressed Neem with an emulsifier.
evolka said:
Control DMP is an acidifying fertilizer. Personally, I wouldn't use that, but that's just me. I honestly have no idea what's available in India, but I'd certainly be asking around in the local area. You may be able to use something as simple as egg yolks, but I'd definitely experiment with that in a very small test area first...
Clearly I don't share that opinion.solid7 said:
I've observed that the extract is quite preventative for some reason. Not just with Capsicum but with several plants that don't seem to respond as well to neem oil based treatments including some cacti and succulent seedlings.
In my experience the extract works perfectly but I've never had to mix more than a gallon at a time and I don't know how well it scales.
Sorry for the newbie question, but have a few mites and went looking for neem oil as I have read on here. Im in Australia and the local gardening/nursery shops here had what they call Eco-Neem oil.
But has a warning on it that its not to be used on edibles ?? What is in it is the same as what you guys are using, so am guessing its just the over the top regulation warnings in Aussie ??
But has a warning on it that its not to be used on edibles ?? What is in it is the same as what you guys are using, so am guessing its just the over the top regulation warnings in Aussie ??
Max Nihil said:
I really couldn't comment on why that would be, without knowing particulars. But the fact that the clarified oil is missing the active ingredient that makes Neem an active pesticide vs a contact agent, is not debatable. It's possible that there is more to the story than can be seen from this perspective. But clarified Neem is just a contact pesticide. This is not an opinion.
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I don't really know what kind of pests get into cactii and succulents - I've never observed anything attacking them here. But I know whitefly, aphid, scale, and broadmite all too well...
ChillnInAus said:
Neem is safe for topical and ingestion under a specified dosage (which isn't insignificant). It's possible that your government is somewhat like several of our nanny states, that considers anything that is unsafe at high doses, to be unsafe at any dosage. Just to be sure, I'd check to see what the other (if any) active ingredients are.
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As a general rule, when in doubt, don't apply anything doubtful to vegetables - and by vegetables, I mean the scientific definition, not the grocery store definition. That is, any part of the plant that is consumed, that is not the fruit. This includes leaves, tubers, stems, etc. A fruit is the part of the plant that contains the seed.
Demented said:
No, that's really not it. Although it's not been credibly quantified - at least not in anything that I've seen - Neem is linked to encephalopathy and liver/kidney damage, particularly in children. Adults who are not pregnant are advised that it's (probably) safe to ingest up to 60mg/day, for up to 10 weeks. Since they're not really conducting human experiments on this topic, the world may never really know. In some parts of the world, Neem is indigenous medicine.
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I mean... There's no way that you'd ever get those concentrations back out of a plant that wasn't the Neem tree. But whatever. Some countries just love a good ban or regulation.
The magic bullet reductionism you present here that neem oil has the single active ingredient removed is overly simplistic and fails to consider that azadirachtin is not the only active ingredient as evidenced by the chemistry, history and activity of neem and the extracts.solid7 said:
Clarified neem is licensed for use as a contact based miticide as well as a fungicide. The oils alone do not explain the activity and when mites feed on plants the extract is applied to it is fatal, however the lack of translocation means that new growth is not protected. It is considered a contact based insecticide largely because insects sprayed with it die, including bees. However insects that land on a leaf where it has been applied do not die... yet insects that feed on those leaves also either die or have molting problems between instars. The clarified oil is chemically complex and the idea that the removal of the majority of azadirachtin somehow renders it inactive or inferior is glib.
Azadirachtin is not considered food safe, it is linked to organ failure, although low exposure amounts are not implicated in this. There are emerging concerns of the impact of gradual exposure and long term health consequences in particular for Cannabis. Neem products are widely used in Cannabis production but many growers are moving away from it.
The history of use doesn't mean that it is entirely safe. Lead and mercury have thousands of years of human medical use and aren't safe to use.
At low dilution cold pressed neem oil is a good product but the extract also works extremely well and in lacking azadirachtin it is considered a better product by many growers of various crops intended for human production.
Max Nihil said:
Sure, what I stated was "reductionism" - because most people aren't going to be interested in a nuanced conversation on the matter. It will most likely just end up as a conversation between you and I, with most people considering it a nerd wank.
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I can argue all day that smoking something, is very different than eating something. And I can (as I have) also point out that Neem and aza are "linked", but there is no evidence so conclusive as to warrant solid warnings - much less bans. In fact, for most of the world, we are warned, but not banned, based on a lack of empirical evidence. And, as pointed out previously, no human experiments are being conducted to solidly condemn Neem usage. Perhaps if we did, we might find that it's a similar situation to the ingestion of small amounts of cyanide or arsenic (which are easily metabolized in small doses, and even occur naturally in some foods).
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I personally do not care how it impacts cannabis producers, because you would first have to isolate every other compound that is in cannabis, qualify how it is altered by changing its state (through burning), all of its interactions with every isolated component, and finally, address the fact that direct absorption of an altered element through a mucous membrane, does not equate to trace amounts of an ingested substance, in a complex state.
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The next thing to speak of, is whether or not the "clarified Neem extract" is a pure extract, or if it comes packaged in some other product. To me, that is where the relevance lies. Otherwise, I'm at a loss to understand how a product with its active ingredient removed, supposedly works better than the product with the active ingredient, all things being equal. If that's the only thing that's changed, shouldn't both products work the same? Otherwise, the implication is that the aza ingredient is directly harmful to plants.
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As to Neem not being considered "food safe", well, that is an opinion, also. The opinion of the US Food and Drug Administration, is that it is generally safe, with dosage being the factor. As with many substances that are considered "food safe".
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I will still take issue with your definition. Clarified Neem is marketed as a contact, which only kills what it touches, with no lasting effect on feeding insects. Whereas cold pressed, with aza intact, has a limited, but certainly measurable residual period. This is a very commonly understood definition.
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https://blog.gardeningknowhow.com/trends/azadirachtin-vs-clarified-hydrophobic-extract-of-neem-oil/
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The real difference between a product like Azamax, and its pure form, is that Azamax adds limonoids - which apparently are what make certain drugs work better. (why some people are advised not to eat citrus while taking particular drugs)
Max Nihil said:
No, it really isn't. Otherwise, there would be no reason to extract the ingredient, and use it at higher concentrations, elsewhere. If the product works at a fraction of its strength, then why do products like AzaMax add it back in at something closer to a naturally occurring concentration?
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And yes, removing most of the main ingredient, does change the classification of the product from a systemic to a contact pesticide.
Did my whole garden with my hybrid 'mix'. Put the zap back in clarified...
1 tbs cold pressed Bliss neem oil / 3 tbs AG Southern clarified Neem oil to 1 gallon warm water. Mixed up perfectly total emulsification of the extra tbs cold pressed.
Plants seem to react just like the AG Southern clarified neem 'light was sprayed, seems like no stress on plants and haven't seen even a single pest anywhere in sight for days now... No doubt about it, cold pressed neem adds killing power and repellent properties that clarified does not have.
Don't get me wrong, I like the AG Southern Clarified, it has its place and it works, I use it by itself many times when appropriate.
4oz(8tbs) of AzaMax is $25. or about $3 a tbs
Bliss Cold Pressed Neem oil is about $30 for a qt (32oz) about .50cents a tbs
AG Southern Clarified Neem Oil $9 for 8oz or 16 tbs, again about .50cents per tbs
So, AzaMax recommends on my bottle, 2tbs per gallon for mites iirr. Thats a total of 4 gallons from 1 $25 bottle of AzaMax.
AG Southern clarified one $9 bottle makes 4-8 gallons @ 2-4tbs per gallon recommended dose for mites.(I used 3tbs per gal)
Add in 5 tbs Cold Pressed @ .50cents per tbs = $11.50 for 5 gallons mix
So, bottom line, AzaMax gives you 4 gallons at mite strength for $25 or my mix at $11.50 for at least 5+ gallons of well emulsified mix that doesn't separate and is a 'Real Cold Pressed' strength spray with all the Aza, surfactants, spreaders, stickers, thickeners,anti-foaming, buffering agents, and compatibility agents, that a well engineered correct ph Cold Pressed Neem spray needs imo... at less than half the cost of expensive very good AzaMax.
Is my mix as good as AzaMax,? maybe/probably not, but it is better than AG Southern Clarified by itself, or Bliss Cold Pressed with soap or cocowet or natural wet, by itself, and half the price...
jmo
Next preventative spray in about 14 days I'll try to go down to 2 tbs AG Southern clarified and see if it has enough adjutants to still emulsify another 1 tbs of added cold pressed neem oil.
Getting ready for a couple of my Chinense racks to ripen up for another harvest, just trying to keep the hordes of sFL pests at bay...
1 tbs cold pressed Bliss neem oil / 3 tbs AG Southern clarified Neem oil to 1 gallon warm water. Mixed up perfectly total emulsification of the extra tbs cold pressed.
Plants seem to react just like the AG Southern clarified neem 'light was sprayed, seems like no stress on plants and haven't seen even a single pest anywhere in sight for days now... No doubt about it, cold pressed neem adds killing power and repellent properties that clarified does not have.
Don't get me wrong, I like the AG Southern Clarified, it has its place and it works, I use it by itself many times when appropriate.
4oz(8tbs) of AzaMax is $25. or about $3 a tbs
Bliss Cold Pressed Neem oil is about $30 for a qt (32oz) about .50cents a tbs
AG Southern Clarified Neem Oil $9 for 8oz or 16 tbs, again about .50cents per tbs
So, AzaMax recommends on my bottle, 2tbs per gallon for mites iirr. Thats a total of 4 gallons from 1 $25 bottle of AzaMax.
AG Southern clarified one $9 bottle makes 4-8 gallons @ 2-4tbs per gallon recommended dose for mites.(I used 3tbs per gal)
Add in 5 tbs Cold Pressed @ .50cents per tbs = $11.50 for 5 gallons mix
So, bottom line, AzaMax gives you 4 gallons at mite strength for $25 or my mix at $11.50 for at least 5+ gallons of well emulsified mix that doesn't separate and is a 'Real Cold Pressed' strength spray with all the Aza, surfactants, spreaders, stickers, thickeners,anti-foaming, buffering agents, and compatibility agents, that a well engineered correct ph Cold Pressed Neem spray needs imo... at less than half the cost of expensive very good AzaMax.
Is my mix as good as AzaMax,? maybe/probably not, but it is better than AG Southern Clarified by itself, or Bliss Cold Pressed with soap or cocowet or natural wet, by itself, and half the price...
jmo
Next preventative spray in about 14 days I'll try to go down to 2 tbs AG Southern clarified and see if it has enough adjutants to still emulsify another 1 tbs of added cold pressed neem oil.
Getting ready for a couple of my Chinense racks to ripen up for another harvest, just trying to keep the hordes of sFL pests at bay...
I am curious to know what is in the "Other Ingredients" section, not declared in the SDS. It lists "Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil OPP Chemical Code: 25007" as 70% of the formulation by weight. But there is no declared section for "other ingredients". 30% of the total weight of a product is not insignificant.
I had the same question so called AG Southern and actually got a Chemical Engineer on the phone. He explained to me the 30% was adjutants and refereed me to the article I linked above. He could not give me any details of the exact composition of the adjutants package AG Southern use as its a proprietary formula they've developed over the years.solid7 said:
He did tell me, unlike azadirachtin, Clarified Neem Oil is active against fungal diseases such as mildews and rusts.
acs1 said:
Yeah, so that's what makes me suspicious. Southern Ag is a big commercial chemical company. If your clarified Neem works better than your cold pressed, IME/IMO, there's something else in there, and it might not be something that you'd normally opt to use. That's kind of been the crux of my entire series of monologues...