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breeding Isolation Techniques

So last year was the first year to try out some isolation techniques to produced isolated seeds and try our hand at some interesting crosses. After much research here and else where the super glue method was chosen being that it was semi quick and easy. After gluing the flowers shut and marking them time after time each and every flower dropped either right after setting a pod or right before. There's really not much room for error i would assume but it didnt even work 95% of the time. 100% of the flowers chosen all dropped and never produced a mature pod. On that note what would my friends here at THP recommend?


With the super glue method it was pretty self explanatory Right before the flower opens be quick and glue the petals together so essentially it self pollinates and you have a true to form seed. The pollen wasn't the issue because we had suburb production this past year. I'm interested in better more effiecent ways of isolating specific strains.


All help is appreciated and welcomed!
 

thoroughburro

Extreme Member
I had been planning to try bud gluing this year, and probably still will (although with plain white glue, not super glue), but perhaps a backup plan is in order. I’ll be following this thread with interest.
 

Downriver

Extreme Member
@ThePepperManiac Gotta say Super Glue concerns me Tyler. There's some nasty chemical reactions going on there. I would think that shit would kill any plant it touches. I think most folks use good 'ol Elmer's white glue. Also, I think you need to be gluing BEFORE the flower actually opens. Check out this LINK for a pictorial tutorial. Another trick to use with Elmer's is to fill a bottle cap with glue, then dip the flower in a few times. Makes it a little easier to deal with.

Another, more common method is bagging. Check out Peter Stanley's vid HERE that he did a few years ago for an example. He does a branch, but you could just do one flower using small organza bags (available at WM) or make your own bag-ass bag out of tulle yourself and cover the whole plant. @MikeUSMC did that several years ago (2017 maybe?). Check his Glog here at THP.

Hang in there and keep after it. Hope you have a great grow this season.
 
@ThePepperManiac Gotta say Super Glue concerns me Tyler. There's some nasty chemical reactions going on there. I would think that shit would kill any plant it touches. I think most folks use good 'ol Elmer's white glue. Also, I think you need to be gluing BEFORE the flower actually opens. Check out this LINK for a pictorial tutorial. Another trick to use with Elmer's is to fill a bottle cap with glue, then dip the flower in a few times. Makes it a little easier to deal with.

Another, more common method is bagging. Check out Peter Stanley's vid HERE that he did a few years ago for an example. He does a branch, but you could just do one flower using small organza bags (available at WM) or make your own bag-ass bag out of tulle yourself and cover the whole plant. @MikeUSMC did that several years ago (2017 maybe?). Check his Glog here at THP.

Hang in there and keep after it. Hope you have a great grow this season.
That might of been the problem I was experiencing. I thought or just assumed that when anyone was talking about the gluing method they were using super glue which in my case just killed the flowers. Maybe I'll try Elmer's just to try it out this year to see how it works. I also will probably try out the bag method. I only didn't do that last year because technically with wind and elements the pollen "could" transfer from plant to plant. The only thing the bags are preventing is insect based cross pollination but I'm pretty sure that accounts for most accidental crossing when it comes to peppers.

Thanks for your reply! I'll be sure to keep this thread updated on successes or fails lol
5 gal paint strainer. Remove all flowers that have already opened, then cover the entire plant. Once you see pods, remove the strainer and tag the pods.

No fuzz, no mess, no drama.
I think this is the bagging method I'm going to try out this year. Definitely beats taking a bunch of little bags and doing each individual flower. I use single bags for potential crosses and the whole bagged plant for normal isolated varieties I want!

Thanks for your input! I'll keep the thread updated with successes or fails!
 
The Elmer's white glue trick never worked for me. Operator error I suppose
Not necessarily, I never had much luck with it either.

I like mesh bags with drawstring.

1645327966917.png
 
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…or make your own bag-ass bag out of tulle yourself and cover the whole plant. @MikeUSMC did that several years ago…

B9B27531-DE11-4FC3-85A2-EF6B95F068DE.jpeg

😁👍🏻 I like the “bag the whole plant” technique the best because you can pick exactly which pods you want to save seeds from, vs. crossing your fingers and hoping one of the flowers you isolated has the phenotype you’re looking for (if you bag individually)
 
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thoroughburro

Extreme Member
Yeah, that’s my backup plan… tenting entire containers in bulk mosquito netting, which I imagine is a cheap form of mesh, it being a basic necessity in many tropical countries.

I’m really hoping to get bud gluing to work, though. Looking at the pictorial linked above, it looks fiddly to get right… so I’m not surprised folks have had mixed success. It looks like a much thicker coat, or even multiple coats, go on and judgement calls are vital.

I suspect and hope it’s a knack which could be surprisingly reliable after practice, but frustrating until it clicks. At least, that’s my hope. It’s like El Dorado… easy selfing would be such a win, it’s worth chasing the dream!
 

thoroughburro

Extreme Member
you can pick exactly which pods you want to save seeds from, vs. crossing your fingers and hoping one of the flowers you isolated has the phenotype you’re looking for

This is a common misconception of vegetable gardening genetics. Every fruit on the plant has the exact same genetics; only the seeds within the fruit represent new individuals. As such, the appearance of the fruit you save seeds from makes no difference.

In terms of selective breeding, only the appearance and performance of the whole plant should influence whether you save its seeds.

Example

A gardener has two scotch bonnet plants, and they want to select for the cup-and-saucer pod shape.

The first one produced three of the most beautiful pods of the year, but was also inconsistent, producing more size and shape variability.

The second one produced uniform, pleasing pods, but none so exceptional as the first.

If the gardener saves seed from the first plant, it doesn’t matter if they save only the seeds from the three best pods: odds are they will get similar plants to the first, including its variability.

On the other hand, if the gardener saves seeds from the second plant, and hell let’s say they choose ugly pods so they can eat all the good ones… odds are still that they will get similar plants to the second plant, including its uniformly pleasing pods.

The individual pods on a plant don’t matter. Save seeds from the plant which performed best overall.
 
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This is a common misconception of vegetable gardening genetics. Every fruit on the plant has the exact same genetics; only the seeds within the fruit represent new individuals. As such, the appearance of the fruit you save seeds from makes no difference.

In terms of selective breeding, only the appearance and performance of the whole plant should influence whether you save its seeds.

Example

A gardener has two scotch bonnet plants, and they want to select for the cup-and-saucer pod shape.

The first one produced three of the most beautiful pods of the year, but was also inconsistent, producing more size and shape variability.

The second one produced uniform, pleasing pods, but none so exceptional as the first.

If the gardener saves seed from the first plant, it doesn’t matter if they save only the seeds from the three best pods: odds are they will get similar plants to the first, including its variability.

On the other hand, if the gardener saves seeds from the second plant, and hell let’s say they choose ugly pods so they can eat all the good ones… odds are still that they will get similar plants to the second plant, including its uniformly pleasing pods.

The individual pods on a plant don’t matter. Save seeds from the plant which performed best overall.

What if the pod choice is on one/same plant?

_

1645836666189.png
 

thoroughburro

Extreme Member
Then it doesn’t matter… the appearance of the pods does not impact the genetics of the seeds.

Think of it this way: every pod is just another functioning part of the plant, like its leaves or branches. Its function is to carry the seeds, which contain the embryonic next generation. All the pod can tell you is who the mother is. If you want to know what the offspring will be like, observe the whole parent plant, not just its one leaf, one branch, or one pod.
 
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thoroughburro

Extreme Member
If the pod specifically could tell you anything about the embryos within the seeds, it would imply that the pod came from them, rather than the parent plant. Since it must be the other way around, it must also be the parent plant who is responsible (along with environmental conditions) for the appearance of every pod.
 
What if the pod choice is on one/same plant?

_

1645836666189.png
All seeds from the same mother plant, regardless of shape of the womb/belly/fruit will carry the same potential genetics. You always want to pick fruit from the best performing plant overall. Whether you pick seeds from the white, black, or red circled fruits it makes no difference at all so long as they were all found on the same plant. You have to look at the big picture for your selections to have any meaning and that big picture is the entire plants performance. Quantitative traits like fruit size, fruit wall thickness, plant productivity, etc. have be measured by looking at the entire plant as compared to other plants grown in the same condition. If you are only growing out 1 plant from a cross or a well known hybrid etc.... you are incapable of making any meaningful selections as you only have one plant.
 
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