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lighting LED lighting

Anyone have any experience with LED grow lights? Specifically the higher powered UFO types like this http://www.htgsupply...-Grow-Light.asp

From the web in general it seems opinions are mixed, although since this is still very new tech a lot of the reviews and opinions are referencing first generation technology.

I'm running over 1000w of lighting already and I want to add more, but I'm starting to worry about overloading the 70 year old wiring in my house. This seems to be the ideal solution power wise at least
 
Check this out: http://www.maximumyield.com/article_sh_db.php?articleID=584&yearVar=2010&issueVar=July. A lot of great info in this article if your interested.
 
Bottom line - LEDs are not ready for prime time - yet. Most manufacturers still have not come to realize plants need all the spectra between 400-700 nm - most of them, at best, provide 1-3 different wavelenghts; a few go so far as offering 4-6 of the 300 available.

I've played with them for 4 years and until a decent panel comes along that offers all the spectra in the PAR range, I'm not going to waste my money. But that being stated, I have played with a couple of very low-watt white LED lights - not bad! I used the ole "Shine the light on a CD" trick and saw all the spectra, ala a rainbow. But at a cost of ~$2/watt, no matter how much my utility costs go down, they are not economical enough to buy.

YMMV.

Mike
 
I use LEDs.
I'm not sold on commercially built pannels though.
Watts is voltage X amps. and means nothing for LEDs as far as how bright they are.

They use wats to measure incandescent bulbs that the specific filament uses X amount of wats to put out X amount of lumens.All/most incandescent lights use basically the same type fillament so it is a good way to measure them in general.

I have 1 wat LEDs that put out anywhere from 25 Lumens to 200 lumens each.They use the same amps. and voltage.
I have 3 watt LEDs that put out 60- 200lumens.

Same with T 8 and T12 fluoros.
I have T12's that put out 1600Lm.to 3000Lm. at 40 watts.
I have T8's that range from 2000Lm to 3000 Lumens at 32 watts.
Going by watts with LEDs and other light sources is useless.

I make my own LED pannels in about 9 or so wavelengths of red and blue.
Basically in 425nm to 670nm.Blue from 430nm-475nm and red from 615nm - 670nm.
Most are between 25-300lm each in 1-3 watt stars.
But I use 5mm and 10mm because I can't get the wavelengths I want in stars.
I use mainly stars over the top in 430-470nm blue and 615-665nm in red.
I use a mix of 5mm and 10mm vertically to increase branching and make more stocky plants.
I think the verticle LEDs make a difference with LEDs since they are beams and don't distribute light the same as other light sources.
mylar sheeting is a waste since LEDs don't radiate light in all directions.

I think most commercial LED pannels are not up to more than sprouting plants.
False data being advertised or made to look like it is a comparisson of apples and oranges.

Also they use watts as a rating of their light output where watts means nothing in general except how fast your meter turns.
You could make a pannel that uses a gazillion watts but puts out only 100 lumens just by using a bad power source/supply.

Also LEDs are usually measured in MCD(candle power) which ,using math can only get an approximate equivilant in Lumens depending on the LEDs angle/beam.
Wider the beam/angle the harder it is to equate to Lumens accurately.
Only a light meter can really say what your LEDs are really putting out.
And most of them aren't accurate with only red and blue light.
They were designed to measure all light sources not only 2 wavelengths,a general measurement of existing light.Not sensitive to any specific wavelength.

It seems that a lot of people who never used LEDs are posting nonsence about them as fact and others that make their own seem to like them or have reservations about their cost effectiveness and use as suplimental light or a good source for certain stages of plant growth only.

Using them is different than other light sources.
They are'nt like fluoros or halides etc.
Initial cost can be expensive but then there is a savings in electric and life span-if run at the right voltage and amps.

Setting a 12X12 pannel of 10mm LEDs 6ft.+ away from your plants to cover an 8ft. sq. area as some commercial guys say you can is pure BS in my opinion.

You could with higher Lumen stars but I haven't run into a 10mm LED with that narrow of an angle to put out that high of a Lumen from that distance yet.

I just sent a friend some low end (5mm)LED pannels to play with for a 1 plant experiment or over several sprouts.300 leds above and 200 vertically on the sides.

He'll probably post his experiance with them eventually.

He grows some amazing starter plants under fluoros now so he will be a good source for comparing LEDs to fluoros next spring I think.
He is a poster here who you'll all know.

PS.
I also think that since LEDs are mostly wavelength specific you don't need as many lumens to grow plants.
I think plants in general need something like 2000 lumens of sunlight to grow.
Sunlight isn't just the wavelengths a plant uses so it has to be brighter to give out enough of the wavelengths a plant needs in the required amounts.
I think dimmer light(to some degree) in the right spectrum works as well as mixed wavelengths in higher lumens.
 
Hmm, seems opinions here are as divided as they are on the rest of the net. Smokemaster, what do you consider the minimum amount of bands to use? 3 as most of the commercial models use is not enough? If you can build one you think is better than the model I linked to for the same price you have a taker :) I'm very curious to try them out, despite all the negative comments.

Pepperlover; come spring I'm way to busy to have time for seedlings. Ideally I want everything in 2 gallon+ pots by late march so all I have to do is dig the holes and stick 'em in the ground :)
 
I use 8 or 9 main wavelengths assuming the stats on the LEDs I use is correct.
Since it probably isn't I'm probably using more wavelengths than I think I am.
If an LED says it puts out for example 660nm.
Thats only it's main wavelength.
It puts out wavelengths in lower and higher ranges but mainly 660nm.
Some depend on the juice you give them and will put out for example 615nm - 620nm depending on if your feeding them 2.1volts or 2.4volts at 300ma or 350ma.

Light Wavelengths from 400-700nm
link below has some info I coppied under it.

http://www.ledgrowlights.info/LED-light-wavelengths.php


The visible colors of light from shortest to longest wavelength are: violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red. Ultraviolet radiation has a shorter wavelength than the visible violet light. Infrared radiation has a longer wavelength than visible red light. White light is a mixture of the colors of the visible spectrum. Here is a summary of wavelengths (nm). If you are building your own LED Grow Lights it may be of help when selecting LEDs for your project.

200 - 280 nm UVC ultraviolet range which is generally harmful to plants. LEDs in this spectrum are non-existant or very expensive.

280 - 315 nm Includes harmful UVB ultraviolet light which causes plants colors to fade. UV LEDs in this range are now available and coming down in price.

315 - 380 nm Range of UVA ultraviolet light which is neither harmful nor beneficial to most plants.

380 - 400 nm Start of visible light spectrum. Process of chlorophyll absorption begins. UV protected plastics ideally block out any light below this range.

400 - 520 nm This range includes violet, blue, and green bands. Peak absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and a strong influence on photosynthesis. (promotes vegetative growth)

520 - 610 nm This range includes the green, yellow, and orange bands and has less absorption by pigments.

610 - 720 nm This is the red band. Large amount of absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and most significant influence on photosynthesis. (promotes flowering and budding) The ratio of red (660nm) to far red (730nm) in sunlight is about 1.2:1

720 - 1000 nm There is little absorption by Chlorophyll here, but Phytochrome uses a nice portion. Flowering and germination is influenced. Near and above the higher end of the band is the Infrared spectrum, which can also be heat and could cause elongation or affect water absorption/transpiration.

Many of these plant pigments have dual wavelength peaks that can be activated with led light combinations:

Beta-carotene 450nm 480-485nm dual peak
chlorophyll a 430nm 662nm dual peak
chlorophyll b 453nm 642nm dual peak
phycoerythrin 590nm single peak
phycocyanin 625nm single peak



in my experiance,
450nm , 485nm , 662nm were hard to find,had to use 5mm LEDs.

Stars come in 430nm , 470nm , 480nm , 658nm , 660nm ,680nm , 590nm , 615-625 and were easy to find but varied in lumens greatly.

I use 425nm , 430nm , 435nm , 465nm , 470nm , 475nm in blue.
red in 615nm , 620nm , 625nm , 630nm , 635nm , 640nm , 645nm , 660nm , 658nm , 665nm , 670nm.

Whatever was in the Hong Kong dumpster that was between 400nm and 660nm when I haggled with the vender.

Another link.

http://www2.estrellamountain.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookPS.html




It's not worth the Labor to make the ones I made for myself, to sell.
Couldn't get anywhere near a decent price for the time it takes to assemble them.

Some wavelengths you can't get in stars or high MCD output so I use a lot of them.
I'm talking about several thousands of some of the 5mm LEDs.

I am thinking about trying the different white LEDs too after I mess with the red and blue ones I already have.
White is easier to get in higher lumens and cheeper in general per LED.

The only reason I don't mind all the soldering is because my job is boring and I'm basically paid to be on the site and do nothing for 14 hrs. a day unless the alarm goes
You can only watch so much TV and chase the dog around so many times before your bored again.

Soldering as zillion 5mm and 10mm LEDs and star LEDs kills time.
Most of the Hong Kong LEDs venders will haggle over price for a couple thousand 5mm , 10mm LEDs and go down on stars too.
I don't pay anywhere near what a lot of the EBay prices are for them in general.
I see a lot of stuff about them burning out etc. on the net.I haven't had that problem yet.
I think people are probably overdriving them and cooking them.

Same with people complaining about hong kong made growlight pannels.
The maker probably overdrives them to get more lumens and cooks the LEDs.
Once they have your $ they don't care if it lasts years or 2 min.
Go to Hong Kong and bitch about it...

I won't pay more than about $1.80 for any star and a few cents max. each(usually less then 1 cent each in bulk) for 5mm LEDs.10mm LEDs are all over the place in price from $1. ea. on down.
Lumens are all over the place too from not worth using except in large amounts or not too bad.
White ones are usually brighter and cheeper in general.

You can haggle with the Hong Kong guys because they all shop out of the same dumpster.
It's mostly last years tech. so they need to dump it fast before this years stuff goes out and gets replaced by new stuff.


11X16 stars-54LEDs
IM004695.jpg



IM004643.jpg


IM004642.jpg


100 of the 400 red 660nm,100 of the 200 blue 470nm stars and 1600 blue 5mm and 2600 red 5mm LEDs
IM004553.jpg
 
woooooow, those are some nice LED's i must admit my ignorance when it comes to to led's, but what do you think of those new CREE ... i think they are called cree MC-E, 4 die's on one chip i believe.

i must admit to building flashlights in a previous life, but i dont know squat about led's really.
 
I never use the name brand stuff so I can't say anything about newer tech stuff.
Don't have that kind of money for toys...

http://www.ledsupply.com/creemce.php

$23. each choke choke.... :eek:

430 lumens would be nice.

Don't know their cooling needs.

The 1 watt ones I use don't need cooling since I mount them on 1/8th inch thick aluminum but the resistors and LM 315 or whatever do need cooling.

The Leds I use would take an average of 20-25 to equal 10 of the cree LEDs in lumens.

My highest lumen star is something between 160 lm and 190 lm if I remember right at typical power.
Then there is the viewing angle difference as how far away you can use them from your plants.
So it's a trial and error experiment either way-is it better to cover the same area with just red and blue closer to the plants or give them more lumens from the same distance in white/mixed wavelengths?

I haven't checked out white LEDs yet in Chinas dumpster to see what the highest lumen ones are and their cost so I just don't know much about white LEDs.

I've got to finnish messing with the stuff I have first.

I think I'll probably end up putting some white in them eventually to see if it's different than just the wavelengths I have in red and blue.

Back to the Cree LED
350ma - 700ma-need a supply with high amp. output to run several of these.

5000-10,000K which is good for plants.At least my fluoros are 5500-6500k.

115 degree angle spreads the beam out a lot but it's tighter than the cheep stuff I use and would get more Lumens in a smaller area from farther away.

3.5-3.9 volts is good too but that would depend on your power supply voltage.


10mm LEDs I use are 5 chips but a lot less lumens-the brightest is around 106 lumens each give or take at a 40 degree angle.
My 10mm red and blue pannels have 80 red 625-635nm and 42 blue 470nm on them-280000mcd (106 lm)and 190,000mcd-200,000 mcd (70+ lm.).


Keep in mind some of the stats for these LEDs is under lab conditions with power supplies etc. that are very accurate which might not be what we can get to use for them.
Variations in voltage and amps. can make a difference and how hot the LED gets effects them too.Too hot or cool effects Lumens and wavelength-so I've read.

As far as would I like to get my hands on a chinese/cheep nockoff of the Cree,Yup, I'd like a couple dozen to play with.

Dec 20

FleaBay white LEDs

$12.00 each free shipping
700-750LM
6000k-7000k

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-10W-WATT-STAR-HIGH-POWER-WHITE-LED-Light-750Lm-/350356157681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5192dab4f1


same thing
$10.+$2.00sh

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-10W-WATT-STAR-HIGH-POWER-WHITE-LED-Light-750Lm-/120662485208?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c180b68d8



Want to buy 50 for $6.80 each?
Looks like the same as above...

http://cgi.ebay.com/50pcs-10W-White-High-Power-700LM-Lamp-Prolight-Star-Led-/180603297572?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0ccb9f24
 
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