I have a “bq” (burning question) for the experts relative to the multiplicity of pepper varieties, specifically those labeled in some form as naga or morich. I understand that the origin is part of the nomenclature. In surfing around for new seeds this year, I see Bombay Morich, Naga Morich, Dorset Naga (of which I have saved seeds), etc. etc. Another example is Habanero Red, Caribbean Red, Congo, etc. While they may be distinct varieties; for the purpose of cultivation and consumption, are they essentially the same or just variations on the same theme? Space in the pepper patch is becoming a premium and I do not want to have needless duplication.
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Multiplicity of Pepper Varieties Question??
- Thread starter MIPEPPERGUY
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I have the same issue with space. This year I grew Bhut Jolokia, Bih Jolokia and Dorset Naga. They were all very similar. The Bih was so much like the Bhut I grew that I won't bother planting it again. For the 2011 season, I have 5 or 6 different Bhut varieties plus 2 brown and one yellow. Just can't grow them all.
I think it's a good problem to have as there will always be something new to grow.
I think it's a good problem to have as there will always be something new to grow.
Bhuts, bihs, nagas are all very similar since they all probably originated from the same plant which was likely a Trinidad scorpion or 7-pod.
The red "habs" IMO are not true habs but more likely crosses or hab-like chinenses which happen to be red. Many red chinenses are similar in flavor although never identical
The red "habs" IMO are not true habs but more likely crosses or hab-like chinenses which happen to be red. Many red chinenses are similar in flavor although never identical
Last year, grew dorset naga, bih jolokia, bhut jolokia (in order of pod size smallest to largest). Also, 7 pod red and jonah (same on pod size). A sampled a thumbnail size piece of each. While all were “insanely” hot with the 7 pod seemingly more so, I preferred the bhut type taste better. That said, based on your comments, I pretty much have this area covered? Perhaps greater experimentation is afforded in the “red hab.” Types? What is a “true hab.” that you mentioned.?
I do this because I find enjoyment in it. No one that I know understands what the hell I’m doing with all this pepper fuss. I’m pretty much the only one that can consume the stuff that I grow. Give them a few jalapenos and they are happy. While I suppose there is some degree of novelty factor involved; I really grow peppers to utilize them in some fashion.
P.S. Potawie – enjoyed looking at your posted pepper pics. Had Opalka tomatoes last year as well, they made great sauce. Also, San Marzano; overrated IMO and will not have again.
I do this because I find enjoyment in it. No one that I know understands what the hell I’m doing with all this pepper fuss. I’m pretty much the only one that can consume the stuff that I grow. Give them a few jalapenos and they are happy. While I suppose there is some degree of novelty factor involved; I really grow peppers to utilize them in some fashion.
P.S. Potawie – enjoyed looking at your posted pepper pics. Had Opalka tomatoes last year as well, they made great sauce. Also, San Marzano; overrated IMO and will not have again.
There are many types of San marzano tomatoes, some better than others but I've come to the conclusion that they just don't grow as well if not grown in their native volcanic soils and Italian climate. I'll stick with opalkas for paste types, they are always my favorite 
From my understanding true habaneros or landrace habs are orange and have the typical hab shape and orange hab flavor that we know. Most chinenses labelled as habs are really hab-nots with different shape, color and origin. Its just easier to say hab then to explain all the chile misnomers and scientific names to non chile-heads, but in time this always leads to confusion. The same thing is happening to all the bhuts, nagas, and Trinidad varieties now too, which are all red pods in their true form
From my understanding true habaneros or landrace habs are orange and have the typical hab shape and orange hab flavor that we know. Most chinenses labelled as habs are really hab-nots with different shape, color and origin. Its just easier to say hab then to explain all the chile misnomers and scientific names to non chile-heads, but in time this always leads to confusion. The same thing is happening to all the bhuts, nagas, and Trinidad varieties now too, which are all red pods in their true form
Of course, habaneros once had the buzz and soon, lo and behold, everything was sold as an habanero. The chile from Havana (hence the name habanero w/tilde over the n) I have seen grown commercially is orange/red and has a very distinct shape.
Now everybody calls any chinense an habanero leading to more bad taxonomy.
Jolokias are now in for this naming problem until everybody on EBay who has chile seeds and wants to sell them calls them jolokia. There will be the usual weeping and gnashing of teeth when the uninitiate find that they don't have a jolokia.
Now everybody calls any chinense an habanero leading to more bad taxonomy.
Jolokias are now in for this naming problem until everybody on EBay who has chile seeds and wants to sell them calls them jolokia. There will be the usual weeping and gnashing of teeth when the uninitiate find that they don't have a jolokia.
It depends on the characteristics of the variety . Which means since we don’t have a formal seeds source like CGN,PI.CAP… where every variety is registered and documented . You will find :
1 many names for the same variety . :Bhut Jolokia= Ghost Chili
2 many names for different varieties :Bih Jolokia, Bhut Jolokia, Naga Morich
3 many varieties using the same name : Naga Jolokia. Naga Morich. And Bombay Morich . They all use the name naga but different varieties
4 language differences could lead to miss understanding for example : the word congo in Trinidad local markets used for Habanero here in the us
So how can we fix this confusion, fist it starts with the seeds source . If it was sent to you by a local farmer or native gardener and he/she indicates that is the name of it I would trust that name more than any commercial sellers
Second : you do what most of us do collect different seeds from different sources and put them for test . Grow them document the difference and share the results. Because every one of us have a valuable information that can change the whole concept about that variety including the name. for example : many chiliheads though that Trinidad Douglah was same 7pod brown. But when I received seeds from Trinidadian with two different names for two different varieties. I put them for test planting them and keep documentation. Once you realized the difference you share the information because you might be right or wrong . Which means wait and listed to what other growers are saying about your results.
This link in an example of what I am trying to explain
Douglah Vs Brown 7POD
1 many names for the same variety . :Bhut Jolokia= Ghost Chili
2 many names for different varieties :Bih Jolokia, Bhut Jolokia, Naga Morich
3 many varieties using the same name : Naga Jolokia. Naga Morich. And Bombay Morich . They all use the name naga but different varieties
4 language differences could lead to miss understanding for example : the word congo in Trinidad local markets used for Habanero here in the us
So how can we fix this confusion, fist it starts with the seeds source . If it was sent to you by a local farmer or native gardener and he/she indicates that is the name of it I would trust that name more than any commercial sellers
Second : you do what most of us do collect different seeds from different sources and put them for test . Grow them document the difference and share the results. Because every one of us have a valuable information that can change the whole concept about that variety including the name. for example : many chiliheads though that Trinidad Douglah was same 7pod brown. But when I received seeds from Trinidadian with two different names for two different varieties. I put them for test planting them and keep documentation. Once you realized the difference you share the information because you might be right or wrong . Which means wait and listed to what other growers are saying about your results.
This link in an example of what I am trying to explain
Douglah Vs Brown 7POD
Well Douglah is a brown 7 pod cross. Thats why I like a specific name like Douglah and not just a color for a name. There could be many different brown 7 pod crosses but if they are all just called brown 7 pod then it gets so confusing. And why doesn't anyone specify what the brown parent is instead of just naming them after the more popular 7 pods? Once they are crossed they are more or less only 3.5 pods
Same goes for brown/chocolate/black nagas/bhuts.
Same goes for brown/chocolate/black nagas/bhuts.
Thank you pepperlover. It was a visit to your website that triggered by thought process on this matter. i.e. I already have saved seeds from Bhut, Bih, Dorset, 7 Pod red and jonah, Trinidad Douglah that I grew last year. All were kindly supplied by cmpman1974; whom I believe most everyone here recognizes. I believe that they are reliable without hyperbole.
Back to my original issue. If I already have say a 7 Pod jonah and Bhut Jolokia CPI, what's the need to consider growing a 7 Pod Barrackpore or Bhut Indian Carbon? I am only talking about a couple of plants each. Is this a distinction without a difference? Is a habanero red from your operation different than the same from company x? Again with a finite about of dedicated pepper real estate, I would rather grow a variety of significant rather than marignal difference.
While I'm somewhat the novice at the pepper growing aspect of gardening, I have been putting "plants in the dirt" for a number of years. I've perused these forums long enough to understand that "caveat emptor" applies to this seed/plant thing, what vendors seem to forthright and which are suspect.
I appreciate everyone's comments on the matter. Without getting to deep into the taxonomy of this, I'm reaching the conclusion that there is not a whole lot of difference. This is just a hobby, something a little different than the next person's (at least in my world) and something to "fuss over" from seed start in January until finally pulling the plants in October.
Now if I could only find some Harold St. Barts seeds!!
Back to my original issue. If I already have say a 7 Pod jonah and Bhut Jolokia CPI, what's the need to consider growing a 7 Pod Barrackpore or Bhut Indian Carbon? I am only talking about a couple of plants each. Is this a distinction without a difference? Is a habanero red from your operation different than the same from company x? Again with a finite about of dedicated pepper real estate, I would rather grow a variety of significant rather than marignal difference.
While I'm somewhat the novice at the pepper growing aspect of gardening, I have been putting "plants in the dirt" for a number of years. I've perused these forums long enough to understand that "caveat emptor" applies to this seed/plant thing, what vendors seem to forthright and which are suspect.
I appreciate everyone's comments on the matter. Without getting to deep into the taxonomy of this, I'm reaching the conclusion that there is not a whole lot of difference. This is just a hobby, something a little different than the next person's (at least in my world) and something to "fuss over" from seed start in January until finally pulling the plants in October.
Now if I could only find some Harold St. Barts seeds!!
I have to bring up couple points, how I see this development as European.
So many farmer can't prevent cross-pollinations and they think that hell yeah... Let's make new variety, with asskicking, selling name, such as Naga Viper. Almost everyone can start selling own crosses with own name. Just take naga or bhut and add something clever till end... Competition is hard. Sellers grow as many varieties as possible, within same small GH. The don't care what that second generation is. Only how much they can sell this shit!
As here in Finland we have maybe most cultivar varieties in hole world... Just because, from beginning most cultivar seeds are from Fatalii. Not all over internets...
Someone said differences between different cultures,languages and location. That's so true!
For example this quote:
"Fresh chile names can be very confusing in Southern California. Our goal is to sort this out. The name PASILLA means "little raisin," a reference to the raisiny appearance and aroma of the this very distinctive chile that the West Coast calls CHILACA. This misnomer was started in northwestern Mexico and Californians perpetuate it. To further complicate the issue, a Oaxacan chile with the same color but an entirely different appearance and flavor is called pasilla. That Oaxacan pasilla is very likely the progenitor of the long green/red New Mexican Chile which is said to have had the pasilla as an ancestor. In the Oaxaca area, the true pasilla is known as pasilla de Mexico, while the local cultivar is the pasilla de Oaxaca or just pasilla. Confused? Welcome to our nightmare."
They all mess up that end-user, noobie chilehead, who buy seeds with wrong name, that was intention.
Hopefully you guys get something out of this post... My english is not so good.
P.S I have 100% non-cross-pollinated Harold St. Barts seeds
EDIT: Have to add that Fatalii have own cross: Bhut Morouga (Bhut Jolokia x Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend) but he won't sell it before it's stabilized to own variety (F3-F4)
So many farmer can't prevent cross-pollinations and they think that hell yeah... Let's make new variety, with asskicking, selling name, such as Naga Viper. Almost everyone can start selling own crosses with own name. Just take naga or bhut and add something clever till end... Competition is hard. Sellers grow as many varieties as possible, within same small GH. The don't care what that second generation is. Only how much they can sell this shit!
As here in Finland we have maybe most cultivar varieties in hole world... Just because, from beginning most cultivar seeds are from Fatalii. Not all over internets...
Someone said differences between different cultures,languages and location. That's so true!
For example this quote:
"Fresh chile names can be very confusing in Southern California. Our goal is to sort this out. The name PASILLA means "little raisin," a reference to the raisiny appearance and aroma of the this very distinctive chile that the West Coast calls CHILACA. This misnomer was started in northwestern Mexico and Californians perpetuate it. To further complicate the issue, a Oaxacan chile with the same color but an entirely different appearance and flavor is called pasilla. That Oaxacan pasilla is very likely the progenitor of the long green/red New Mexican Chile which is said to have had the pasilla as an ancestor. In the Oaxaca area, the true pasilla is known as pasilla de Mexico, while the local cultivar is the pasilla de Oaxaca or just pasilla. Confused? Welcome to our nightmare."
They all mess up that end-user, noobie chilehead, who buy seeds with wrong name, that was intention.
Hopefully you guys get something out of this post... My english is not so good.
P.S I have 100% non-cross-pollinated Harold St. Barts seeds
EDIT: Have to add that Fatalii have own cross: Bhut Morouga (Bhut Jolokia x Trinidad Scorpion Morouga Blend) but he won't sell it before it's stabilized to own variety (F3-F4)
Excellent discussion here. I see the the history and lineage tracking of chiles is similar in many ways to that of the domestication of dogs from wolves. Most of us own mutts instead of carefully bred and documented pedigreed dogs. These dogs are wonderful, and healthier in some cases, than "pure bred" dogs. Over time, more and more of these domesticated dogs are mixing, and it seems near impossible to really know all the different breeds a mix has in its bloodline. It is amazing to me how a chihuahua somehow came from a wolf. I am no expert, just an observer, but I see the sharing and mixing and growing of so many kinds of chiles all over the world as the same thing. I love all the differences that result from this mixing, but I am also most thankful that some growers take isolating seriously to keep the chile pedigree alive.