seeds Organic Seed?

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

When it comes to growing organic, I am about as hippie as a person can get.  Chicken n Ducks for pest control n poop.  Used to keep goat in part to clear the fields after a grow and keep the deer away during the grow.  If you have ever smelled the pee of a male goat in rut you'd understand.  Oh damn it stinks. 

But organic seeds?  Seriously? 

I read an argument in one of my gardening / home stead forums (forget which).  Someone in the seed exchanged mentioned using Miracle Grow on the mama plants.  Someone else wigged and said she'd never use her seeds because they were not organic.

My thinking is even if it is pesticide or herbacide, could any of those chemicals wind up in the seed in such quantities to make a difference in the final fruit?  Seems to me, there are probably more chemicals in ground water than there would be in those seeds.

Thoughts?
 
AJ Drew said:
When it comes to growing organic, I am about as hippie as a person can get.  Chicken n Ducks for pest control n poop.  Used to keep goat in part to clear the fields after a grow and keep the deer away during the grow.  If you have ever smelled the pee of a male goat in rut you'd understand.  Oh damn it stinks. 

But organic seeds?  Seriously? 

I read an argument in one of my gardening / home stead forums (forget which).  Someone in the seed exchanged mentioned using Miracle Grow on the mama plants.  Someone else wigged and said she'd never use her seeds because they were not organic.

My thinking is even if it is pesticide or herbacide, could any of those chemicals wind up in the seed in such quantities to make a difference in the final fruit?  Seems to me, there are probably more chemicals in ground water than there would be in those seeds.

Thoughts?
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I agree that the one gardener's use of MiracleGro on the plants from which those seeds were sourced will have no significant impact on the chiles grown from those seeds, assuming the second grower kept his/her grow "organic" from the times the seeds were sown.  But, for some of these ppl, organic is almost a religion; purity can take priority over logic, for some growers.
 
However, I can understand how some folks might insist on organic seeds, b/c they're trying to avoid GMOs, vote with their dollars, support organic producers, etc.  There are some logical reasons to demand organic, but I don't believe that second-hand MiracleGro is one of'm.
 
 
JoynersHotPeppers said:
Is any seed organic? 
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This is probably one of those semantic discussions, like "is zero a number?" and thoughts on what noises are made by trees falling far away.  But, the short answer is: yes.  Seeds are sold as "organic" and the USDA does certify seedstock as being "organic."  https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Crop%20-%20Guidelines.pdf  What any of that really means to you is entirely up to you, but the classification does exist.  And, in regards to AJDrew's post, the seeds with MiracleGro involved in their production would not qualify.
 
Bicycle808 said:
 
 
This is probably one of those semantic discussions, like "is zero a number?" and thoughts on what noises are made by trees falling far away.  But, the short answer is: yes.  Seeds are sold as "organic" and the USDA does certify seedstock as being "organic."  https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Crop%20-%20Guidelines.pdf  What any of that really means to you is entirely up to you, but the classification does exist.  And, in regards to AJDrew's post, the seeds with MiracleGro involved in their production would not qualify.
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My point is this and I'll leave it with this as well, if you created the seed it is not organic, where did the day 1 seed come from? There are certain rules you need to follow to become certified as organic which I researched heavily and decided not worth it. A farmer 1 mile away using the worst chemicals ever, how do I control that not drifting to my organic farm?
 
JoynersHotPeppers said:
 
My point is this and I'll leave it with this as well, if you created the seed it is not organic, where did the day 1 seed come from? There are certain rules you need to follow to become certified as organic which I researched heavily and decided not worth it. A farmer 1 mile away using the worst chemicals ever, how do I control that not drifting to my organic farm?
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I agree with you re: the ROI and the lack of control under real-world conditions.  If you clicked my link, though, it says you can used non-certified seeds if they were "untreated" and, if guidelines are followed from that point on, the resulting seeds could qualify for certification.  I guess, in addition to trees falling in the woods and zero as a number, we gotta add the "chicken vs egg" discussion, too.  :P
 
Does it make sense? no. 
Is it the law anyway? yes.
 
From the National Organic Program's rules on Organic Production and Handling Requirements:
 
Code of Federal Regulations Title 7, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter M, Part 205, Subpart C. (Otherwise known as CFR §205.204)
 
§205.204   Seeds and planting stock practice standard.
(a) The producer must use organically grown seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock: Except, That,
(1) Nonorganically produced, untreated seeds and planting stock may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced variety is not commercially available: Except, That, organically produced seed must be used for the production of edible sprouts;
(2) Nonorganically produced seeds and planting stock that have been treated with a substance included on the National List of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production may be used to produce an organic crop when an equivalent organically produced or untreated variety is not commercially available;
(3) Nonorganically produced annual seedlings may be used to produce an organic crop when a temporary variance has been granted in accordance with §205.290(a)(2);
(4) Nonorganically produced planting stock to be used to produce a perennial crop may be sold, labeled, or represented as organically produced only after the planting stock has been maintained under a system of organic management for a period of no less than 1 year; and
(5) Seeds, annual seedlings, and planting stock treated with prohibited substances may be used to produce an organic crop when the application of the materials is a requirement of Federal or State phytosanitary regulations.
 
I really liked the certified organic program until I read it.  It really seems written to facilitate factory farms using the term for marketing.  Lots of chemicals and artificial methods allowed.

It just kind of blows me away to say you are not organic if you participate in seed swapping, trains or libraries because you can not certify the seed stock.  Gotta say, since we are talking peppers it is even more weird cause the seeds are so damn small that at my age I have to use magnifier glasses to count them.  I honestly can not imagine them making a difference.

On GMO seed, I think there is a huge language problem.  They might not be 'natural', I might not like them, but am thinking saying they are not organic because they are 'man made' is a stretch.  After all, human poop is organic and man made.  OK, it depends on what you eat but the joke was worth it.
 
AJ Drew said:
It just kind of blows me away to say you are not organic if you participate in seed swapping, trains or libraries because you can not certify the seed stock.  Gotta say, since we are talking peppers it is even more weird cause the seeds are so damn small that at my age I have to use magnifier glasses to count them.  I honestly can not imagine them making a difference.
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Absolutely correct. Theres probably only a couple thousand cells in the whole seed (guessing) and theyr'e all going to be dead long before it flowers.
 
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