Pompous or Common Sense?

Any line of pepper can be reduced in dna range via selective seed saving.  At what point is it reasonable to add your name or initials to your own line and at what point is it just pompous? 

Examples:
Jays Ghost Pepper
Smokin' Ed's Red Savina

Please note, not ragging on either Jay or Ed.  Its is just kind of a curious sort of question considering all the accusations of folk changing names to create the facade of exclusivity.  Certainly there is a point where a line is so refined that a new name is beneficial.  Who would argue that the Trinidad Butch T Scorpion is not different than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion even though as I understand it there was no cross / new pepper involved.

See what I mean?
 
ajdrew said:
Any line of pepper can be reduced in dna range via selective seed saving.  At what point is it reasonable to add your name or initials to your own line and at what point is it just pompous? 

Examples:
Jays Ghost Pepper
Smokin' Ed's Red Savina

Please note, not ragging on either Jay or Ed.  Its is just kind of a curious sort of question considering all the accusations of folk changing names to create the facade of exclusivity.  Certainly there is a point where a line is so refined that a new name is beneficial.  Who would argue that the Trinidad Butch T Scorpion is not different than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion even though as I understand it there was no cross / new pepper involved.

See what I mean?
 
I don't think renaming a specific (stable) pheno is pompous. From what I understand, the Butch T has a much different flavor profile than the Moruga.
 
ajdrew I think it would be beneficial for you to research a bit more as regards cultivars, hybrids and the naming thereof.  I understand that this is not your forte and you want to learn, but if one is going to throw this type of thing out there it is best done with a modicum of understanding so as to be able to deal with the ensuing outfall.
 
Jay's Ghost - an outcross, like the Primo.  If you make it you can name it.  Simple. 
 
The Savina - a cultivar.  Firstly you can't use the name without permission of the owner, so let's assume he has permission to use it.  He has then selected for other traits - maybe a different shape or taller bushy plant or higher yields or whatever.  But as long as it is consistently different as purported then with permission from the owner of that name you can claim a cultivar name.  In this case just adding his name to distinguish it as different from the original.
 
TS Butch T - cultivar.  Name given to a hotter variation of the TS - commemorating the source of the seed so as to distinguish it from other sources which were apparently not as hot.  In the same vein there is the TS AJ (Alabama Jack) - once again to distinguish the source - it is a larger, somewhat differently shaped version of the TS.
 
Moruga Scorpion - not at all related to TS.  Supposedly a very different genetic origin to the other Trinidada landraces (paper by Bosland et al discusses this).
 
I hope this clears a few things up.
 
Jays peach and red bhut are both scorpion crosses that have been stabalised so ther definetly new .. I suppose when It comes to attaching a name it comes down to when you have something unique with obvious differences that is growing true to your lineage .. Like the MoA scotch bonnet with it's identifiable quality of shape and flavour .. Or Judy's peach bhut with rounded edges instead of the usual sharp edges..
But really is there an official point in time.. I guess it helps to be reputed in the pepper business and have "100's" of plants from wich your exclusive strain come from but at the end of the day.. It only takes one doesn't it.
 
RobStar said:
 I understand that this is not your forte and you want to learn, but if one is going to throw this type of thing out there it is best done with a modicum of understanding so as to be able to deal with the ensuing outfall..
Wow that was a bit harsh. I have simply asked a question, solicited opinion.  I did so by saying very clearly: "Please note, not ragging on either Jay or Ed."

You are right in one thing, I did not know Jay's peppers were a cross.  Sometimes people are in error.  As an example, you seem to think Red Savina continues to enjoy protection from the Plant Variety Protection Act.  It has not since 2011.  You then seem to be explaining the fair use of trademark rules.  I can not tell if the name Red Savina is trademarked because the database seems down at the moment.

My question was: "At what point is it reasonable to add your name or initials to your own line and at what point is it just pompous?"

Kraken got it.  Not as colorfully as I had hoped, but he got it.  Not sure why you (Robstar) think there is something to defend.  If I have given you that impression, I apologize.  So lets just have the conversation.

Trinidad Butch T Scorpion - It is a refinement / narrowing of dna from a wider line called the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  This is according to every reference I can find.  Not sure why Robstar wants to bring up Moruga Scorpion and kind of like staying away from that quagmire considering the "Moruga Blend", "Moruga", "Moruga Scorpion", "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion", and other terms being used almost interchangeably.  All be it mistakenly so, but still interchangeably.

Thinking we all agree that the Butch T came from the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  Think we can all agree it is different than the average Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  I am asking at what point is the refinement so different that the pepper deserves a different name.  I am not saying the Butch T does not deserve a different name.  I am simply asking what the point is and using an example that clearly deserves it.

Red Savina - Not protected by PPA anymore, but a great subject because the rules of PPA dictate that you show that the new cultivar is in fact a new cultivar and thus deserving of a new name.  I am not saying Red Savina did not deserve a new name, I am observing that it is obviously deserving of it.

Smokin Ed's Red Sav - Robstar said it might deserve the new name because it different in X, Y, and / or Z.  Another great example of my question.  Which X,Y, and Z?  What makes it deserving of a new name?

Jay's Ghost Pepper - Yep, I did not know it was a cross.  Knowing that, there is an entirely different question.  Why would naming convention not note such a thing.  Not saying it is not deserving of the new name, wondering why Jay would not have named it something like Jay's Ghost Scorpion.

Kraken, excellent bit about point in time.  I have been selectively seed saving a normal orange hab for nearly a decade, refining the dna.  The main thing I have been selecting for is wall thickness because I make a candy out the thing.  Also, been selecting for the lower temps but that is not working out so well.  Simple concoction, nutmeg, cinnamon, and honey heated, seeded / cored pepper soaks in the solution, then dehydrate.  I do wind up with less heat, but I think that is from the oils going into the stuff I soak them in.

Anyway, I dont think it is distinct enough to call it A.J.'s Candy Ass Habanero.  But it is different.  Here is the thing, it becomes a bit more distinct every year, changes bit by bit as I refine the dna moving towards a set goal.  At what point should it be called my candy ass hab?  Once you give it a name, should you stop refining it?

And then there is the question of noting the origin of the seed.  Lets talk something really well known: Ghost Pepper.  Red Ghost Pepper seed from one seedman can be wildly different than Red Ghost Pepper seed from another seedman.  The genetic for the thing we call Red Ghost Pepper is not a narrow grouping at all.  In fact, their so much being bought in bulk and cut up into dime bags that the same seedman might give you different seed stock in the same order.

What system could exist where the particular seedman could note a specific line without the pompous attribute of renaming a pepper?  I like the initial thing, but that kind of denotes something much more different than what I am addressing.

Robstar, found some information on Red Savina and trademark that mucks it up even more.  Again, the official site is down but here is what i found.

"This is the brand and trademark page for RED SAVINA HABANERO which was created on September 30th, 2013 by GARCIA, JR., FRANK, an INDIVIDUAL. The trademark owner is located at 766 TROTTER COURT in WALNUT, CALIFORNIA. GARCIA, JR., FRANK can be contacted at 310 540-7241, IPLAW@DSLEXTREME.COM or ."

http://www.markhound.com/trademark/search/bLWNsEHnw

Frank Garcia is the original cultivator, demonstrated it was unique enough for PVPA, the protection expired, and it looks like he then went to protect the name via trademark.  Not a lawyer and can not tell from this page when the name was originally trademarked.  But it would seem that if it were trademarked in 2013 the claim might not be valid as it was commonly used for so long before a single person claimed it.

I suspect this brings an entirely new angle on this conversation.  You will note Puckerbutt call it "Smokin Ed's Red Sav Habanero" and not "Red Savina Habanero".  The DNA is no longer protected by PVPA, there is no mention of trademark at the Puckerbutt site.  So I suspect the reason for renaming the thing is to avoid the trade mark infringement.  No clue if the name difference is distinct enough for that purpose, but thinking it probably has more to do with copyright than being a distinct or different line as you indicated it must be.

http://store.puckerbuttpeppercompany.com/collections/smokin-hot-seeds/products/smokin-eds-red-sav-habanero

Hot damn this is turning into a fun topic.
 
Sorry about to go to bed in this one.. If I was to put one of my carrot Habs against yours and notice a distinct difference one that would replicate through strain purity then I would see no harm in you calling it AJ's Carrot Hab ..

I guess the only real thing that makes it a distinct variety is popularity .. If 5 people buy the seeds then AJ's Habs will probably be forgotten about.. If it becomes the "Go to" Orange Hab then it may become as well known and wanted as a Jays scorpion or MoA Scotch Bonnet ...

Should you stop refining .. No.. But should it change again in a distinctive way, then maybe a AJ's Carrot Hab - Ultra Hot / Giant / Series II etc etc may unfold ... Or maybe just call it a Ajanero
 
ajdrew said:
Trinidad Butch T Scorpion - It is a refinement / narrowing of dna from a wider line called the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  This is according to every reference I can find.  Not sure why Robstar wants to bring up Moruga Scorpion and kind of like staying away from that quagmire considering the "Moruga Blend", "Moruga", "Moruga Scorpion", "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion", and other terms being used almost interchangeably.  All be it mistakenly so, but still interchangeably.

Thinking we all agree that the Butch T came from the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  Think we can all agree it is different than the average Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  I am asking at what point is the refinement so different that the pepper deserves a different name.  I am not saying the Butch T does not deserve a different name.  I am simply asking what the point is and using an example that clearly deserves it.
 
No, the Trinidad scorpion Butch T. is a selection from a Trinidad scorpion not a Trinidad scorpion Moruga. The genetics of the two are more distant than you think.
 
I don't know what is pompous. You also mentioned bhuts being different depending on the source and sometimes the same source, which I agree with. I don't think they are stable. I plan to refine a lot more bhuts from various sources (I'm a huge bhut fan).
 
I named this variety bhut jolokia Dulac (selected for 3 gens). Seems fine to me to name it after the grower so you know the lineage.

 
ajdrew said:
Wow that was a bit harsh. I have simply asked a question, solicited opinion.
First off, AJ, i didn't read any harsh tones in what RobStar said. I have found i must confront my own ignorance in any correspondence with him -- and several other well-informed members here. I've had to google terminology used in some posts made by folk here quite often.

Second... RobStar, in particular, has helped me a great deal with the input he's had for my research.

Third, i love some of the topics you've started. This is one of them.

Fourth, i'm still giggling in a most immature way about the phrase "candy-ass habanero" that you coined.

Thanks man. This forum hasn't been the same since you returned, and i like it.
 
RobStar said:
ajdrew I think it would be beneficial for you to research a bit more as regards cultivars, hybrids and the naming thereof.  I understand that this is not your forte and you want to learn, but if one is going to throw this type of thing out there it is best done with a modicum of understanding so as to be able to deal with the ensuing outfall.
 
Jay's Ghost - an outcross, like the Primo.  If you make it you can name it.  Simple. 
 
The Savina - a cultivar.  Firstly you can't use the name without permission of the owner, so let's assume he has permission to use it.  He has then selected for other traits - maybe a different shape or taller bushy plant or higher yields or whatever.  But as long as it is consistently different as purported then with permission from the owner of that name you can claim a cultivar name.  In this case just adding his name to distinguish it as different from the original.
 
TS Butch T - cultivar.  Name given to a hotter variation of the TS - commemorating the source of the seed so as to distinguish it from other sources which were apparently not as hot.  In the same vein there is the TS AJ (Alabama Jack) - once again to distinguish the source - it is a larger, somewhat differently shaped version of the TS.
 
Moruga Scorpion - not at all related to TS.  Supposedly a very different genetic origin to the other Trinidada landraces (paper by Bosland et al discusses this).
 
I hope this clears a few things up.
In case you didn't know.Butch Taylor didn't put his name on the TS BUTCH T. someone else did!
What's your underlying motive here?Are you still drunk?AJDREW ?????
 
mikeg said:
First off, AJ, i didn't read any harsh tones in what RobStar said.
I was put off at his indicating that I did not have a "modicum of understanding" in response to my asking a question as if I should first find the answer to a question before thinking I am worthy to ask it.  What ever.
 
BTW: If you like the candy ass habanero pepper name, search the forum for A.J.'s Toe Peppers.  They are specially bred for making hot pepper jam.  Wait for it... wait for it...  There, did you get it?
 
Thanks for complimenting some of my topics.  Yep, I try to stimulate conversation.  Seems like the thing to do with a forum system.  Oddly, some folk seem to think there is always some sort of secret agenda.  Kind of weird but often entertaining.  Yes, I am really with the pepper police.  The secret pepper police.  The SPP.  Hands up, drop that pepper!  If you think the raw milk police are bad, you havent met the SPP.
 
Dulac said: "No, the Trinidad scorpion Butch T. is a selection from a Trinidad scorpion not a Trinidad scorpion Moruga."

You make me want to bring up naming convention again.  I think you mean "Trinidad Butch T. Scorpion" rather than "Trinidad scorpion Butch T" and "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion" rather than "Trinidad scorpion Moruga".  Not ragging, the names people use change with conversation. 

Although I can find numerous references which state Butch T is a refinement of Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, now that you said it was refined out of the Trinidad Scorpion rather than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, i checked with Jim Duffy's site.  He agrees with you, that it was refined from the Trinidad Scorpion rather than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  Thank you.

Mpicante - My ultimate goal?  To stimulate conversation.  I was reading an old post here at THP where a seedman was accused by many of renaming peppers to create the illusion of exclusivity.  I learned my lesson, do not defend that person or even mention his name because the conversation will tun into a rag on that guy festival.  Have also learned that when you post to an old thread, people are all like why did you post to such an old thread.

So I started a new conversation without using the guys name.  A new conversation which learned towards the other side of the topic.  At what point have you created exclusivity and should put a new name on the thing.  I am rather happy with the results because it caused me to go to a seedman I much trust (Jim Duffy) to see what he had to say about the Butch T and I learned something new.  Conversation is sort of a dynamic learning process.

Not sure why you would think I am somehow plotting against Butch Taylor or drinking.  Frankly, I think you are one of those pinko commies trying to steal my vital essences (1 in 100 might get that).  Seriously guy, what's up with that whole I must have some hidden agenda thing?

 
 
ajdrew said:
 
Dulac said: "No, the Trinidad scorpion Butch T. is a selection from a Trinidad scorpion not a Trinidad scorpion Moruga."
You make me want to bring up naming convention again.  I think you mean "Trinidad Butch T. Scorpion" rather than "Trinidad scorpion Butch T" and "Trinidad Moruga Scorpion" rather than "Trinidad scorpion Moruga".  Not ragging, the names people use change with conversation. 

Although I can find numerous references which state Butch T is a refinement of Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, now that you said it was refined out of the Trinidad Scorpion rather than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion, i checked with Jim Duffy's site.  He agrees with you, that it was refined from the Trinidad Scorpion rather than the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.  Thank you.

 
 
I got my TS Butch T. from Judy. Here site lists it as "Trinidad scorpion Butch strain" at the moment, but it used to be "Trinidad scorpion Butch T." I've never seen Butch's name put in the middle, but people have put variations on the name for some reason, including Hippyseed Company referring it to as "Butch T. Trinidad Scorpion." I 100% believe the correct way to refer to it is "Trinidad Scorpion Butch T." It's also better to have the name at the end for organizational reasons. It helps when you you do alphabetical lists in order to group the same type of peppers together. Putting the name in the middle is confusing imo.
 
This Guiness article also refers to it as the "Trinidad scorpion Butch T.": http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2013/11/confirmed-smokin-eds-carolina-reaper-sets-new-record-for-hottest-chilli-53033
 
I'm glad you double checked and np. There is bad information out there (cough wiki).
 
Edit: I had checked Guinness because I remember it being sent there as "Trinidad Scorpion Butch T." The article I mention refers us to The Chilli Factory who posts the certification on their page: http://thechillifactory.com/
 
Dulac, at the end does make sense because it denotes progression / refinement.  My point being there is no naming convention.  You said you have never seen the name Butch T in the middle.  I am not saying these are most correct, but here are some examples of the name Butch T being in the middle.  They are plenty of instances.  Again, not saying it is most correct.  I am saying there seems to be no naming convention.

Note the title is: "Trinidad Butch T Scorpion", then in the context he calls it the "Butch T Scorpion".  Huge fan of Jim Duffy, btw.

http://www.localharvest.org/trinidad-butch-t-scorpion-pepper-pods-C20741
 
Here is Jim Duffy's blog using the term "Trinidad Butch T Scorpion"

http://www.nagamorichtrinidadscorpionand7pot.com/2011/10/trinidad-butch-t-scorpion.html

Here is a UK site that sells the plants as "Trinidad Butch T Scorpion"

http://www.chilli-seeds.com.au/product/trinidad-butch-t-scorpion-plant-collection/
 
Here is a conversation at THP where the term 'Trinidad Butch T Scorpion' is common.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/33896-200-trinidad-butch-t-seeds-worth/
 
Here is someone selling "Trinidad Butch T Scorpion" pods.

https://lamula.pe/2011/08/20/buy-trinidad-butch-t-scorpion-dried-pepper/khlvqkfzqd/
 
Here is another where they use 'Trinidad Butch T Scorpion".  This one says it is from the Trinidad Moruga Scorpion.

http://easyponix.com/local-grown-produce/chili-pepper-trinidad-butch-t-scorpion/
 
Although you have not taken note / seen the pepper listed with the name in the middle it really is a very popular way of referencing the pepper.  Not saying it is any more correct than the "7 Pod" peppers vs. the "7 Pot" peppers.  Saying it bugs me that there is no naming convention.
 
 
Guinness and the growers who brought us the pepper named it "Trinidad scorpion Butch T." That's the authority on the name. CPI would have the most credibility. All those people are screwing up the name. 7 pod is also a misunderstanding. It's 7 pot not 7 pod. Names get all messed up by people. I don't know why anyone would put the name in the middle. That's like saying "Trinidad yellow scorpion." There is no naming convention unfortunately, but it makes the most sense to put it at the end such as "Trinidad scorpion yellow."
 
Edit: Don't mean to sound harsh, but the lack of naming conventions and poor naming irritate me, lol. We really need standards for naming.
 
Dulac, well as I understand the story the seeds went from Butch Taylor to Hippie Seed Company to Marcel de Wit of The Chilli Factory, who grew them, had them tested, and submitted them to Guinness.
 
The Chilli Factory currently calls it the "Trinidad Scorpion Chilli Butch T"

http://thechillifactory.com/
 
Ye, that is really persnickedy but there it is.  Now to have some fun, give a google to the California Reaper.  I shit you not.
 
Dulac said:
Edit: Don't mean to sound harsh, but the lack of naming conventions and poor naming irritate me, lol. We really need standards for naming.
100% agree.  Example: Not ragging on Jays ghost peppers, but if you are going to cross a ghost pepper with a scorpion pepper I would think you would not use the name of only one parent to describe the children.  Then again, my wife kept her maiden name but put my name on the kids.  So who knows what is most proper.

I like your notion that the creator, or in the case of Butch T the promoter, gets to name the thing.  Problem being, obviously it does not stick.
 
 
The full name is Jay's ghost scorpion, which I don't see a problem with. I'm starting to think they are changing the name around the TS Butch T. for marketing.
 
ajdrew said:
And that brings us back to names not sticking.
 
So... ?? What did you finalise the name as ?? AJ's Carrot Habanero ... Or AJ's Toe Habanero ... Carrot Habanero AJ's Blend.... AJ's Thick and Sweet  Habanero... How about AJ's Toebanero or AJ's Orange Toebo??
 
Or you could call it a
 
AJ's Brazilian Carrot Habanero Kentucky Toe Blend...   And then let everyone rip the name apart over the next couple of years lol...
 
Kraken, just observing how maddening the naming conventions can be.  I am still stuck on how you almost have to say 7 Pod or you will get corrected here and there.
 
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