Rules and Regulations - Do you care?

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Somewhere in the THP forum, I read someone make a big deal about how his nursery was certified by his state.  It was kind of odd because he was not talking about plants, but it brings up a good conversation.  Do you care?

I care when it comes to food, but mainly cause I dont want to get sick.  But seed and plants, I figure if something comes in that looks sick or has an insect problem I will either burn or isolate.

Example: Here in KY we have specific labeling requirements for seeds.  I follow them because I dont want to get fined.  But when I purchase seeds, I do not much care.  Most come in the little zipper lock bags.  Sometimes that little bag is in a paper envelope with a label.  But I have never ordered in seed with all the KY requirements except from the truly large companies.  Not even when ordering from a Kentucky seedman.

So curious, do folk care about the rules and regulations?

 
 
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So you read some post of Dale's. That was just par for the course with him. Move on. Nothing to learn from those posts.
 
 
meinchoh said:
If they have subpar product, they have to try to lean on something...
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It is also helpful if you CAPITALIZE every OTHER word TO prove YOUR point THAT you ARE certified. IT is THE law.
 
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I am going to answer the original question with "yes and no." If my state has no certification requirement and such (and it doesn't), then I don't care. However, there are a couple experiences I've had that indicate some people in some places might and even should care. When I moved to California, for instance, how could I not be "impressed" by the fact that they have border crossing stations on every major road into the state? One of the specific prohibitions they are looking for at these check stations are for plants being brought into the state that aren't allowed. California is a huge agriculture state which has had huge problems with various types of insects brought into the state. The plant prohibitions are specifically set up to protect one of their major industries. I never ordered seeds when I lived there, so I don't know if they have  rules/certification requirements, but can see that they might and, if I still lived there, I would care. Also, Australia has some very seriously-taken rules about various types of chile seeds and yes, I take those seriously if I send seeds to someone in Austaralia and use the required identification on the outside of the packaging. Their customs/postal service has proven it's very willing to confiscate packages that aren't properly labeled. 
 
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geeme said:
I am going to answer the original question with "yes and no." If my state has no certification requirement and such (and it doesn't), then I don't care. However, there are a couple experiences I've had that indicate some people in some places might and even should care. When I moved to California, for instance, how could I not be "impressed" by the fact that they have border crossing stations on every major road into the state? One of the specific prohibitions they are looking for at these check stations are for plants being brought into the state that aren't allowed. California is a huge agriculture state which has had huge problems with various types of insects brought into the state. The plant prohibitions are specifically set up to protect one of their major industries. I never ordered seeds when I lived there, so I don't know if they have  rules/certification requirements, but can see that they might and, if I still lived there, I would care. Also, Australia has some very seriously-taken rules about various types of chile seeds and yes, I take those seriously if I send seeds to someone in Austaralia and use the required identification on the outside of the packaging. Their customs/postal service has proven it's very willing to confiscate packages that aren't properly labeled.
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With respect, California's always been a PITA. A lot of their regulations are meant to limit competition, and CA isn't the only example to come to mind in that regard.
 
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Government intervention in the free market.
 
I mostly despise it, although there are some exceptions for me like food safety.
 
It's like the little girl with the lemonade stand.  City government shuts her down because she didn't buy (yes, buy) a permit.  Is it really about food safety?  No, the city wants money. $$$$
 
Having to get permits to do things like sell your seeds, burn a woodstove to heat your home, or even go fishing....it's all government intrusion on things people have been doing since we first learned to rub sticks together...it's nonsensical and a form of soft tyranny.  Free people shouldn't have to ask permission from their government to sell or trade, or even just to save seeds.
 
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If a person/business is actually running as a nursery/seed business and doing interstate commerce (shipping seeds/plants outside of the state they were grown in) I believe it really is a big deal.  There could be some significant fines if they were caught shipping stuff across state lines without proper certifications.  And to make it more complicated, different states have different levels of restrictions/regulations.  The shipper may live in a more relaxed reg state, but if they ship to a more regulated state, they have to comply with the recieving state's regulations. 
 
For most here on THP, it's usually a "sharing with friends" kind of a deal even if there is $ changing hands.  There are several legal/licensed/certified nursery people selling plants and seeds here on THP.      
 
Disclaimer, I'm not a grower or in the seed/plant business.  I think what I've posted is correct, but if not, I hope someone will post the correct information. 
 
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salsalady said:
If a person/business is actually running as a nursery/seed business and doing interstate commerce (shipping seeds/plants outside of the state they were grown in) I believe it really is a big deal.  There could be some significant fines if they were caught shipping stuff across state lines without proper certifications.  And to make it more complicated, different states have different levels of restrictions/regulations.  The shipper may live in a more relaxed reg state, but if they ship to a more regulated state, they have to comply with the recieving state's regulations. 
 
For most here on THP, it's usually a "sharing with friends" kind of a deal even if there is $ changing hands.  There are several legal/licensed/certified nursery people selling plants and seeds here on THP.      
 
Disclaimer, I'm not a grower or in the seed/plant business.  I think what I've posted is correct, but if not, I hope someone will post the correct information.
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Regardless of whether we're talking about seeds, plants, pods, sauces, or anything else, GET TO KNOW THAT PERSON. I've seen certified organic farmers do things that would cost them their stamps if they got caught. I swear by a guy with a few acres a mile or so from us. He isn't certified in anything but the banjo and possibly noodling. I've talked to him enough to know that he's not an idiot. His kids eat from his field. Those two things in conjunction mean more to me than any "Fresh From Floridale" stamp ever will.

You have the paperwork in place. Not everyone does. As you said in an epic sauce post a while back, I don't have any fear either when it comes to certain "amateur" sauces. I've done my homework; if it's clear that they have too, it's on.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that (no offense) the hoops you've jumped through don't do much for me. ConAgra Foods has all the stamps in the world, and Peter Pan peanut butter still gave people Salmonellosis. Paperwork is a starting point at best. Accessibility and transparency, on the other hand...

TLDR: I don't trust you not to give me a food borne illness because your paperwork is in order, but rather because it's obvious that you know what you're doing and actually care about the impact you have. This same philosophy should apply to horticulturists, dentists, teachers, astronauts, writers, babysitters, waitresses, garbage men...
Smokenfire's "Rocket" comes to mind. I sipped the last two-thirds of the bottle as if it were a dessert port. Knew it wasn't going to make me sick. Guy knows what he's doing.
 
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I personally prefer hard science, education, and experience over certification.  Certifications won't teach someone how/when to go fallow in order to eliminate microbial strains in a field. Or how certain species of beans, when planted near crops, will enable nitrogen fixating bacteria- which will benefit soil and eliminate pests.

Then again, there are some production controls like HACCP that I am really glad exist - as they have made our food safe for people with immunodeficiencies, or the elderly that might not shake off a bout of cross-contamination.  ( http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/HACCP/ )

However, it always comes down to the person in the end. Certified or not - I need to know who you are... 

As my grandfather (who was a Poultry consultant) said:
" An idiot is always an idiot... and an idiot working at a chicken farm can potentially kill more people than an idiot with a gun."
 
 
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Helvete - Fishing or hunting on public property I agree with bag limits and permits.  Someone has to pay to maintain the populations, thinking it should be the people harvesting the goods.
 
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ajdrew said:
Helvete - Fishing or hunting on public property I agree with bag limits and permits.  Someone has to pay to maintain the populations, thinking it should be the people harvesting the goods.
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Maintaining populations in areas like mine means their numbers are being reduced.  This is a very rural area with a heavily ingrained hunting culture and the deer population is still out of control.  Wild swine are the same problem, they've started being regularly spotted in my county in the last 2-3 years a lot.  They're nocturnal so we would never even know they're out there most of the time.  Virginia is very liberal (in the lexical meaning of the word) about hunting and fishing, however, it still requires rather pricey permits if you want to hunt or fish off of family property.  I think an annual hunting license is 86 bucks plus another 25 for your tags, I'm not sure...I don't need a hunting license if I'm hunting my own property or property that belongs to my family (parents, grandparents, uncles, cousins, etc.)  I've never purchased one.
 
Public property = we (individuals) already pay for it when our income is stolen from us and our localities make us pay for "protection" to own property within their corporate or county limits.$$$$$
 
I would moreso agree when it comes to corporations overfishing areas which really happens more in open ocean than in lakes and rivers.  We as a species treat the ocean as both a toilet and a pantry, it's kind of disgusting tbh.  And our seafood species are starting to disappear *for some reason*
(http://www.bigmarinefish.com/bluefinpopulation.gif)
 
 
 
However, it's an odd balancing act...the majority of people rely on these corporations to feed them via their grocery stores, if they weren't there...well then individuals would probably overfish lakes. *shrug*
 
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