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seeds Seed Predators

patrick

patrick

I'm going to post this on my grow log too but thought it would get seen by more folks in this forum.

I'm going through the cups that have had seeds in them since the 12th of January and haven't germinated. Yesterday I found a small maggot like thing actually inside the seed shell munching on the embryo. Ok now what the heck is this? Did some googling and found out they could be Dark Winged Fungus Gnat larvae. So today I go through the first few cups and nothing abby normal. Then the 7th cup and boom, found one of the greasy bastages. Found two more on the seed in the 8th cup.

Took a few pics then mashed them. The pics are shot through the eyepiece of my microscope.

This first one shows the larvae inside the seed shell having breakfast. You can see part of the black head and the translucent body. The dark stuff inside the body is waste product.

DSC015071600x1200.jpg


This shot is after I broke the seed shell open. Here you can see the entire larvae.

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The member orangehead posted in my grow log a link to something that can kill these things without hurting the seed. So if you're seeds aren't germinating there may be reasons other than bad seed. If you see any type of gnats flying around I would start looking for these nasty buggers.
 
dang Patrick...those things look nasty...

when I read the title of your post, I thought you were referring to people that show up on the website begging for seeds then disappear... :rofl:
 
damn AJ, so did I!

wow I've never actually given thought to fungus gnats being more than a nuisance- will now keep an eye out for them in the germ tent.

thanks Patrick!
 
Patrick, great camera work to ID the little bastids. I was a poster child for f-gnats last year and hate them more than aphids. It's why I took such extreme measures on my over-wintered plants this year as they'll come over to the seedlings.

While a few gnats flying around the house is normal, if you see them burrowing in your seedling soil, you've got a problem. Two ways to check your level of problem: 1) yellow sticky traps and, 2) a thorough drench of your soil, saving the run-off water in a pan. Use a magnifying glass to look for the larvae. They are really tiny, but you'll see them flipping around in the water.

The yellow sticky cards catches the adult flyers, but won't help you with those in the soil. If your sticky card looks like this, you are already beyond "Houston, We Have a Problem..."

IMG_0844.JPG

Last year I tried Safers, Organicide, micro-waving the top layer of soil, cinnamon, coffee grounds, cups of apple cider vinegar near the plants, letting top of soil dry out. Each one helps some, but once they are in the soil, you're going to need to drench it.

I finally used the mosquito dunk solution (BTi active ingredient). It greatly reduced them, but needed application weekly. BTi is supposedly organic and the seedlings showed no reaction to it. I think some root damage was already done, but they did survive with poor root structures at plant-out.

Other options (I have not tried) Neem solution, Bonide Orchard & Nut Spray, Azamax applied as a drench.

Good luck, f-gnat hunter/killers.... :cool:
 
Thanks patrick those things look freaking scarey ;) Hopefully I wont have this problem but im getting some bug killer maybe some neem oil tomarrow. Now when you say dunk does that mean take the whole plant out by the roots and dunk it and repot it? :S
 
Wow, I have never considered them a problem just a nuisance. I just ordered some Azamax to help with my aphid problems, I guess I will start dunking to try and get rid of these guys. I noticed they like HPS bulb so much that they melt right to it ... serves em right!
 
fathual said:
Thanks patrick those things look freaking scarey ;) Hopefully I wont have this problem but im getting some bug killer maybe some neem oil tomarrow. Now when you say dunk does that mean take the whole plant out by the roots and dunk it and repot it? :S
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Neem is a great all-around organic killer. But I highly recco the sticky traps if you suspect a problem. The "mosquito dunks" are like a large pill. You have to crush part of one up let it dissolve in water, then drench the soil thoroughly.

BUT MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THIS PROBLEM BEFORE YOU START GOING CRAZY WITH ANYTHING! Look closely for gnats flying around your plant and then nesting in soil. Place some sticky sticky traps. Thoroughly drench your soil with regular water and look for tiny larvae with a magnifying glass. If confirmed, THEN ATTACK!
 
Interesting... Where do those things originate from? Do you think they were in the soil that you used?
I've had spider mites come in my bags of Miracle Grow potting soil but nothing like that. Good luck getting rid of those things!
 
Siliman said:
Neem is a great all-around organic killer. But I highly recco the sticky traps if you suspect a problem. The "mosquito dunks" are like a large pill. You have to crush part of one up let it dissolve in water, then drench the soil thoroughly.

BUT MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THIS PROBLEM BEFORE YOU START GOING CRAZY WITH ANYTHING! Look closely for gnats flying around your plant and then nesting in soil. Place some sticky sticky traps. Thoroughly drench your soil with regular water and look for tiny larvae with a magnifying glass. If confirmed, THEN ATTACK!
Click to expand...
Can you use neem oil for the soil and the larva inside the soil?
 
I've actually had this same issue, I was wondering why none of my Aji Limo Rojo were sprouting, dug them up and found larvae consuming the seeds. However, I am not sure if it is because the seeds were bad/weak to begin with or not. I have observed the fungus gnat larvae consuming sprouting cacti, so peppers may be fair game too? I must note that I had close to 100% germination in other seeds in the same area and I have gnats in all of the pots. I wonder if germinating the seeds on a paper towel first would prevent this from being an issue?
 
irishmaverick said:
... Where do those things originate from? Do you think they were in the soil that you used?...
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In my case last year, it probably was the soil mix I used for my overwintered plants. Probably some old pine bark shavings. I've researched they can also come into the house through minute gaps in window sills. If they come in an find your soil, they begin. In most situations, they probably come in and die.

fathual said:
Can you use neem oil for the soil and the larva inside the soil?
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I'm not sure--I haven't used Neem oil solution to drench the soil, so I can't say what strength to mix it to drench with. I DID use it to spray down all of my over-wintered plants when I washed them, roots and all, after I pulled them out of the ground prior to replanting in new medium and bringing in the house. I have not yet had to re-apply anything this year.

Indiana_Jesse said:
I've actually had this same issue, I was wondering why none of my Aji Limo Rojo were sprouting, dug them up and found larvae consuming the seeds. However, I am not sure if it is because the seeds were bad/weak to begin with or not. I have observed the fungus gnat larvae consuming sprouting cacti, so peppers may be fair game too? I must note that I had close to 100% germination in other seeds in the same area and I have gnats in all of the pots. I wonder if germinating the seeds on a paper towel first would prevent this from being an issue?
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I sure don't like the sound of that. F-gnats can attack the roots systems also. I had the most problem with over-wintered plants as a host, then spreading to seedling area. All my seeds last year were started via paper medium.

It's only February, long time til you can get them outside, where natural enemies take them down. Check for infestation problems as advised, do some research, pick your poison if the population escalates. Many times gnats ARE only an annoyance. You'll see a few in any household, and they don't normally kill off established houseplants. The yellow sticky traps will help you catch the adult flyers and determine the level you need to worry about.
 
I'll post one more thing before getting off my f-gnat tirade. I have so far elimated them this year--rather I've prevented them--by using Diatameceous Earth on top of a layer of Perlite on my over-wintered plants. This layer must be kept dry, and it helps to brush the DE wherever the adult gnats crawl: rim of pots, drain holes, etc. It must be kept dry to work:

Click the link and scroll down to my pic and post: F-Gnats Must Die

This has worked as a prevention. But as noted in the thread, Patrick can't use the DE where Tarantulas might wander.

jimhaleii said:
will soaking seeds in peroxide or bleach solution prevent these?
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It might help the seed a bit, but the f-gnats go after the roots also.
 
A trick I have used on the plants in my office is to put a half inch layer of playground sand on top of the soil. Works the same way the DE works except it lasts longer when watering from the top. Not the best method if you have lots of plants though
 
Thanks for the tips folks.

I'm pretty certain they came in with the Trini Scorp I brought in to over winter. I noticed them along the top of the pot rim and in the top of the dirt. I tried coffee grounds and it seemed to keep them at bay as long as the grounds were slightly moist.

I've used a neem/canola oil organic pesticide and put a few drops along the stem of the seedlings hoping it will travel down to the roots. Plus a few drops directly on the soil right above the seeds. I also scoured the room looking for more but so far nothing is fling in that room.
 
Ihave great looking seed thet gets a black spot inside, wonder if it;s that These are on filters, but I also have some dissapear in the dirt... Gonna have to open one up...
 
Almost certainly they come in through the soil. I had a terrible problem with them one year. I don't know what to do about seeds but for plants scrape off the top part of the soil and replace with sterile medium. Let the soil get pretty dry between waterings. Put the sticky traps out.


I have heard weak thuricide will work but I haven't tried it.

I don't think it is mysterious if you have a fungus gnat problem. The F'ers fly up any time you come near the plants. You can put a cut potato on the soil and lift it up the next day. If you have worms on the potato you have a problem.

For me the biggest lesson was... Don't use MG soil. Not saying that you did. I am sure some people will say I am committing the post hoc fallacy or small sample size error Ifyou read other posts you will find that my experience is not unique.
Anyway good soil and letting the soil dry are your best defenses. I know that causes problems when we are talking about seeds
 
frosty said:
Almost certainly they come in through the soil. I had a terrible problem with them one year. I don't know what to do about seeds but for plants scrape off the top part of the soil and replace with sterile medium. Let the soil get pretty dry between waterings. Put the sticky traps out.


I have heard weak thuricide will work but I haven't tried it.

I don't think it is mysterious if you have a fungus gnat problem. The F'ers fly up any time you come near the plants. You can put a cut potato on the soil and lift it up the next day. If you have worms on the potato you have a problem.

For me the biggest lesson was... Don't use MG soil. Not saying that you did. I am sure some people will say I am committing the post hoc fallacy or small sample size error Ifyou read other posts you will find that my experience is not unique.
Anyway good soil and letting the soil dry are your best defenses. I know that causes problems when we are talking about seeds
Click to expand...
Great Idea on the potato If i was a worm hell id want to much on that sucker.
 
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