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Seeking general advices (especially for light)

E

Essegi

Hello,
this is my first time trying to grow hot peppers from seeds. I've never used artificial lights and i don't understand a lot of electronics.
I want to start in early january to plant them.
I don't plan to do a proper germbox or lightbox.... A photo of the room (where there is the heating system):
 
post-2706-0-64237100-1385235433.jpg

 
I want to plant more or less: 10 trinidad scorpion moruga red, 10 hp22b, 10 trinidad douglah, 10 fatalii, 10 fatalii white, 10 bhut jolokia chocolate. 60 or a little more seeds.
I'll keep 2-3 plants for type when i'll change the vases, the rest i'll give presents to friends of mine (i stay large cause i don't know what to expect...). So 12-18 plants (let's say 18).
I'll use a table of 100*60cm (if i have problems maybe i could use a 150*80 table after re-potting).
 
Considerations:
  • I'll place the table near the window siding thermo radiator (wich in general is shut down)
  • The room is at least at 24°C and not in the hottest place. Where i'll put the table it could be a little hotter. I'll do accurate measuring later.
  • If i need i could open the thermo to try to reach 27-28°C (wich is the best temperature if i have understood well).
  • maybe during night there could be a soft drop of temperature
  • when there are no clothes drying up the room is dry itself.
  • there's a windows near: i hope it could help lights during the day (maybe shutting down artificial lights in the brightest hours/days).
  • i hope to use drying racks to hang lights, otherwise it will be an huge issue...
  • i can't afford to spend a lot nor in equipment not in bills... I don't seek the perfect growing tools, just to start the plants before hardening them off...
About light:
i was considering leds for lower consumption. I know that they cost more than neon, but if total price is about the same i prefer that energy price is lower (to minimize bills and complaints even if i am paying them :D). Btw i've found some cheap ones...
If neon is "healthier" for plants i could use them btw.
 
Questions:
  1. I've found this led type: here a picture:
    $_35.JPG

    -Neon 144 LED SMD
    -9 w consuption
    -comparable to an 80w alogen lamp
    -6500k cold white light
    -60*2,5*2,5 cm dimensions
    -1800 lumens
    This is an example as i find others, but it costs on ebay.it around 10€ per piece + expeditions... That's a good price i think...
    I've read somewhere that the correct light is 865 type (please tell me if i am wrong)... 6500k and fluorescent type... I'm not sure this is fluorescent and if this would be a serious issue..
    Could this do?
  2. How many lumens in total? Could 6 of this be ok (10800 total)? So if i keep 18 plants i could divide them in 6*3 and every column would have a led... More will be an issue about costs... 60 cm is perfect for my table. 
  3. Is better neon or led to grow?
  4. [SIZE=12.727272033691406px]Is the room better if wet? I could place a bowl of hot water once in a while if it's needed...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12.727272033691406px]Sorry for wall of text and if i'm asking very basic things but it's my first time... I really can't think of a better plan for my situation...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12.727272033691406px]Thanks![/SIZE]
 
First of all that is a HUGE amount of plants to be growing. Even when potted up into temporary pots, that space you show in that picture won't hold the plants you intend to grow if you plan to use that laundry as a laundry. Ontop of that, you are gonna need a hell of a lot of lighting.
 
That LED light sounds a little bullshit to me. 9w of power draw for 1800 lumens? How the hell is that even possible. 200 lumens per watt of power? That is absurd. Its not true. That light will not provide your plants enough light at all. If you want LED lights, you need a 100w+ unit. They're not cheap. a 100w unit will set you back close to $100. Your best option is a HID light. You can MAYBE get away with a 600w MH light which should give coverage in that room, but again, that quantity of plants, I have no idea how you plan to lay everything out. Ive got about 8 plants in small sized pots, they take up more space than the table you intend to build. I've got two balconies which are about 2m x 6m. If all my plants were on one balcony, there would be no room for walking and I'm talking 20 plants in 4L pots.
 
To answer your questions directly,
 
1) I do not believe that light produces 1800 lumens. My plants are getting about 14000 lumens from 4 T5 tubes. As the plants grew this was not enough, they get full sun.
2) 18 plants is alot of plants. When they mature, you need alot of power to be able to penetrate foliage.
3) Power for lumens HID>Fluro>LED, unless you go premium LED's which these are not. Premium LEDs require big heat sinks and alot of cooling or they will cook.
4) Not necessary. Germinating and small seedlings, humidity helps, once they are a little bigger, they will be fine with fresher air. A very humid room can cause fungus and bacteria and encourage plant disease.
 
I don't know how long you intend to keep the seedlings either or the size of the pots you plan to use. If I was you I would plant everything into 100mm pots then get rid of everything I do not want before the next pot up.
 
If indoor growing is your only option, I would go with a high power LED unit. It cost more to buy than a HID but will cost less to run.
 
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PLANT-LAMP-FOR-PLANT-INCREASE-YIELD-PROFESSIONAL-120W-LED-GROW-LIGHT-i9-/171132680806?pt=AU_Seed_Starting_Hydroponics&hash=item27d84d7a66
 
That item uses 110 1w leds. This will be suitable for small seedlings.
 
There is alot to consider.
 
wow your pretty aggressive with your planting schedule.. why dont you try it with less plants initially and see how they do.. you cant get much light thru the window so yeah you need to add lights.. do your homework.. there is a LOT of info out there.. suggestion try small and then go larger if it all works...
 
Ok, thanks a lot, this is clarifyng!
I was in doubt about light quality as i saw similars lights that are declared lower...
I could reduce to 30 intial plants and keep the rest for 2015 (seeds are new so should resist) and keep 12 instead 18.
I plan to keep them outside... Normally i should be able on march-april, unless it is as this year that has been unnaturally cold and rainy until end of may.... 
I was thinking to initiallly plant on plastic glasses then do an intermediate repotting using in 1-2 L vases (for 2-3 months) then a final transplant (15-20L vases, maybe half plants on vases and half on ground). I plan to use full sunlight only after final re-pot (i could use trees shadows in beginning if too strong).
 
HID, either High Pressure Sodium  or Metal Halide will be the least cost lighting solution in one crop cycle. 30-50 watts/square foot of plant canopy is about the intensity you want.
 
Your going to need a lot of light for 100 seedlings and plants. I use four1000 watt hid lights for 400 plants 4 weeks old and will add 4 more lights as needed. You will also need fans i use 4 big air movers. I also use my whole basement that is 25x40. Without the proper lighting, air movement your plants will get tall and spindly and fall over.
 
Thanks again guys, you measurments is useful! I'm reconsidering to diminish seedlings. I'll check what i can find on my market and online and do some calcs... ;)
 
sorry for the diversion... but i have to ask exactly whats going on in that room equipment wise?
 
i think i see a conventional hot water heater... and what looks like a boiler/demand hot water heater? some circulation pumps too... this must be a baseboard/ radiant heating system?  with a separate hot water tank for sinks/ showers etc? or is the hot water tank  some sort of insulated reservoir for sinks/shower?
 
The LED Fluro replacements I've seen ARE VERY DIM compaired to regular Fluoros.
LEDS are miini spots-light goes in ONLY one direction.
They put plastic over the LEDS that ONLY makes them LOOK like Fuoros,probably cuts down on total lumens and wavelength too.
Most light is going down in the radios of whatever angle the LEDS put out light.

200lm per watt in leds these days can only be reached by pulsing an led at higher mili amps to get more lm. out of them.
You'll find that 180LM per watt ,at best is the most you get from an LED (right now) AND that is running it at the max Mili amps. - The magic smoke will be let out REAL soon doing this-short life.
Try more like 120 Lm per watt as a safe LM per watt for most LEDS at best.
Most,depending on color are half that.80-90LM is good per watt on an average.
You might get more,safely but I would rather be safe than sorry...
But I make my own stuff from trial and error.
But you can never tell,these guys are selling the prime real estate in Florida or the Brooklyn bridge...

LOTS of Data sheets use pulsed light for their spectrometer tests for sales purposed.
(My point of view from ONLY the stuff I've used in over 5 yrs of playing with LEDS.)

PULSED light from an LED won't work on plants.
it's the same as no light.
Photosynthesis is a chemical reaction,pulsed light doesn't get it going,won't work.
If you want to light a room,pulsed light is great,you can get a LOT more Lumens per Watt out of an LED.
But our eyes don't see the mini seconds of off time a plant does.

IF you go with LEDs make your own-for cost.
Pre made panels cost $ IF they are the ones that work,cheap ones SUCK BIG TIME.

Otherwise-I'd go with T5 or Halides.
Don't tell anyone I said that...LOL

I LOVE LEDS for MY grow.
I like playing with new toys and ,over the years WASTED a lot of $ on specific LEDs.
BUT Nothing goes to waste in my playpen.

But you aren't planning on using the same setup as me etc.
My grow might ONLY work for me.
You sound like you are looking for something OUT OF THE BOX that needs to be just plugged into a timer and works.

I find 5000k-6500K work best as far as color Temp. goes for PEPPERS.

Actually the best Fluoros I ever owned were 6700K and 3500+(3700 I think) Lm.
T10's run in T12 fixtures.
Lasted me an easy 6 seasons BUT costed $10.00 each and I had to buy a case at a time.

Not bad in the long run,ONLY because they worked GREAT and out performed anything I had tried before LEDs.
T5's were too limited in K at the time.
Just like t8's are now(though getting better-FOR MY NEEDS).

I have heat problems in my grow room-no ventilstion.

Since your grow is in an unheated room,I'd go with Halide.
for long tern,out of the box performance.
Probably cheaper than a T5 setup WITH the right bulbs.

For starts it will heat the room and cover your sprouts.
I have a small south facing window and think it does very little for my plants.

Makes them long and reaching for light.Had to put a fluoro in the window itself to stop leggy starts...

Also I don't see you using a heat mat under your starter tray or whatever for germination ,expecting room temps. to warm the soil.
A VERY wrong thing to think.
What you listed as growing NEEDS 75+ degree temps at a min. to sprout.Most use around 80-87 degrees for chinense.
Cool soil means seeds get messed with by mold or whatever before they can sprout.

Back to LEDS,There are a LOT of 6500K Spot light for a reasonable price out there.
I've read several people using 20+ watt ones for SPROUTS with great success.
I see they go for a LOT of prices,Check Lumens.
A LOT of the cheaper ones are ONLY 3000lm.
Price is the same as Fluoros for the same LM.
Not a good deal for start out in general BUT might outlive T5's or halides.
Depends on what you buy...
Problem with LED stuff is the useless crap vendors advertise that is B.S..
Same thing with everything else I guess.

I'm thinking about some of the 50 watt ones/LEDS(for sprouts)in the 4500lm ball park.

BUT I LOVE using only LEDs in 400-470NM and 625-660nm LEDS.
Most of their LM are in plant usable wavelengths.
Might get similar or more LM out of other sources BUT most of my LM are plant usable.
I THINK it makes a BIG difference.


I'm debating if the $10.00 10 watt ones would be more cost effective in numbers.
Buy 5 and get a LOT cheaper price...
But ya gotta buy to see if the product is crap or not...

Example-1 50 watt overhead VS 5 10 watt ones strategically placed around my plants to overlap each other.
My goal is always,small tight starter plants.
Hulk type monsters.

But you are looking for what is KNOWN to work,positively right now,for the $

Boils down to,you have an unheated room,Halides won't be a problem.
To me,IF you use halides,t5's or LEDs,they are basically in the same ballpark - in general.
Each has it's advantage.
BUT your grow is YOUR grow.

For $ ,you can find Halides pretty cheap if you shop around.

Especially if you don't mind hitting up your local paper for used stuff.
Research Local Deals.
Call a few local contractors that provide lighting for factories or stores etc.
They sell a lot of stuff cheap used.

I see a lot of lighting Co. and building contractors selling bulbs and or fixtures cheap because they have contracts to replace bulbs every so often and replace fixtures too.
New ballasts are more efficient etc.
People make warehouses into office space,sell the halides cheap that they don't need.
A local contractor might save you stuff they usually toss out for a beer or 2,maybe a few pods or whatever.

Lots of options to check out.
If you find used Halides it rules out new T5 and LEDs...

I'd get a heat mat first while checking out light sources.

Can't light seeds that didn't make plants.Air temp. means nothing,soil temp. does.
 
I've grown under led lights before. They work just dont get a flowering (red) spectrum while you're vegging it will cause your plants to stay low and bushy. Not to mention the fact that I grew them completely indoors cause them to get oedema and compromised the integrity of my leaves. You're gonna need good ventilation.
 
Forget about Red or Blue causing bud set,or lack there of.

It's nutes,temps and MOSTLY LACK of lumens that cause bud drop.

A LOT of times it's light/lm.

I ,AT FIRST had monster plants the REFUSED to put set pods.

Plants looked KILLER BUT wouldn't set pods.
(see posts about my kitchen plants-pics etc.)

Added 660lm-no difference.

Originally had the red to blue ratios recomended on the net...

ADDED more light AFTER messing with nutes.

ALL from spare LEDS IN ANY wavelength I had at the time..

I got massive pod set,just adding LEDS I had in ANY wave length I had at the time.

I Think PEPPER plants need more Lumens to set pods than to grow in general.

ESPECIALLY C.Pubescens.
Positive about Pubes!

I know a LOT of people using ONLY blue light and they get monster bud set.
Same with guys using 6500 to 7000k LED spots.

Peppers AREN'T light specific.

Just because your LEDS make you see yellow spots when you look at them,doesn't mean your plants do.

YES,Red and blue combos DO make my plants grow better when combined,BUT in general it boils down to PLANT usable Lumens I THINK,from MY experiences so far.

If your plants look great under the light you use now,ADD more at budding time.

You WILL see a difference,no matter what.

Yes I think adding Ca. makes a difference and less Nitrogen helps,or can help.

I find Light/Lumens means more in the long run at budding time.
No matter what K/wavelength FOR PEPPERS.

Like you'll see,I have grown some great plants in my kitchen over the years.
7 pots,Red Savina,Pubes and Galopago and every time they dropped buds I cured the problem by adding more light.
More LEDS or Fluoros.
Didn't matter which.Lumens were the cure ALL the time,in soil or Hydro.
 
Yeah dude, check out my grow for this ending season. Here's the link let me know if it loads up or not.
 
not enough lumens definately cause me to drop buds for days...finally got a pod set when i took them outside. Yet it was too late so I just decided to o.w them and hope for the best. I've got plenty of seed anyways.
 
I was only posting what MY indoor grow does,over the years of playing with fluoros and LEDs.

Seems like you found out the same thing I posted above , more or less.

My lighting is both Verticle and horizontal lighting.
I THINK it makes a big difference FOR MY GROW.

By getting bud set outside probably means you weren't giving them Temps or light / whatever indoors.
Nothing more.
Assuming you used the same soil,nutes etc.

Your LEDS actually look more red than my homemade stuff.

Doesn't mean right or wrong.

MY grow is my grow...

Maybe I'm into making my LED panels into MOSTLY plant usable light/Wavelengths,are probably a LOT different than your panel.
Who Knows.
No way to tell...Have no idea about your grow.

Your video comments sound like you are into messing with nutes WAY more than I do.

Red,for me makes TIGHT compact plants,blue makes Large leaves and less compact plants.

Not trying to rag on you , but the video looks like you mess with your plants too much.

Mother nature will ALWAYS win.

Plants do ,to me look like the ones I grew under ONLY or mostly red LEDS.
Small leaves and very compact.

I think you have a Lumen problem.
Plants should be a lot nicer for their age under the right lighting-no matter what light source in the right Lumens.

What works for me WILL/might not work in anyone elses grow.

Just something to think about.
Seems,from your video,you are more into nutes than lighting.
I might be wrong...
Everyone has an opinion...
 
Yeah, this was my 1st grow.
Pretty overwhelming situation given that I was barely learning things as I went along.
Huge lessons learned for sures.
Going on my 2nd grow this coming season.
Still a total beginner I am.
 
Thanks again for infos!
I want to point out that i plan to use artificial light only to grow until hardening off and sunlight to set pods. I have a nice spot in south of my house that is hot with no much wind and somewhat protected from rain. Of course i won't give them full sun the firts times i take them outside...
 
If thats the case go with t5s. Your cheapest and easiest approach. You wont need an abundance of cooling as you would with hid and speaking for my self, my 30 seedlings looked quite amazing growing under them.
 
Thanks again!
Sry for late reply.
In my ebay it's easier to find leds (i'm from Italy)...
I've found this T5:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/HYDROPONICS-PROPAGATION-GROW-LIGHT-T5-LIGHTWAVE-2-TUBE-CFL-LOW-ENERGY-LOW-COST-/261260294169?pt=UK_Baby_Baby_Feeding_Bottle_Warmers_Coolers_LE&hash=item3cd453b819&_uhb=1
But it lack specs...
 
This weekend i should do a better search.
 
Or these leds:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/120W-LAMPADA-LED-UFO-COLTIVAZIONE-PIANTE-INDOOR-IDROPONICA-GROW-LIGHT-/190744514070?pt=Attrezzi_per_Giardinaggio&hash=item2c69424e16&_uhb=1
that should be similar to the one you linked...
 
Or this one that should be more powerful...
http://www.ebay.it/itm/180W-LAMPADA-3W-LED-COLTIVAZIONE-PIANTE-INDOOR-IDROPONICA-GROW-LIGHT-/171078407218?pt=Attrezzi_per_Giardinaggio&hash=item27d5115432&_uhb=1
But this is only red blue.
 
So i suppose 120w led is a good option. Not cheap but i should afford it (and btw i would have problems to run something like 400w...).
 
Those LED units are nice, but honestly if I had to take my pick, and considering your situation, I'd still go with the T5's. Surely though, you can find a unit cheaper. The bulbs it comes with should be fine, more often than not they come with cool daylight, so anywhere between 5k to 6500k. If they're actinic(isn't likely) they will still be excellent for growth.
 
I picked up my 4 tube T5 HO setup for 39.95 brand new and that's aussie dollar.
 
Try search for aquarium lights, they usually come cheaper. As soon as the word hydroponic or grow is mentioned, the price is almost jacked 50%
 
Thanks again.
I've found some cheap t5 HO. Should search local stores btw. Or ask a cousin of mine that is electrician (but busy...)...
 
BTW i'm stll not discarding leds:
this one seems good and from a good seller and it's comfortable to use:
http://www.ebay.it/itm/VIPAR-V180-LED-Grow-Light-180W-UFO-3W-Indoor-Flower-Veg-Spectrum-Lamp-Panel-/171076284925?pt=UK_Baby_Baby_Feeding_Bottle_Warmers_Coolers_LE&hash=item27d4f0f1fd&_uhb=1
Quickly searching seems vipar is not bad... But that doesn't mean this is good...
I found something even cheaper but with huge shipping times and even less sure about quality...
 
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