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sun sun charts/graphs

hotenuff4u

hotenuff4u

i'm attempting to track where and when the sun is going to be facing inside my "patio greenhouse" of my apartment.

looking at a few charts and graphs online, i basically feel like i must be an idiot. does anyone know of a "lamen's" version that might let a goober like me understand it better?

basically trying to figure out if i can use any type of solar energy system, weather using thermal heat storage, or other source of thermal energy, and figure which may work best for me....i'm about to just give up all together and just throw a giant black barrel full of water out there and keep my fingers crossed

changing subjects though, has anyone had any luck with any particular variations of DIY thermal heat units or any tricks or mods to the "black barrel full of water" that they've noticed increases efficiency?

my now sealed in patio during direct sunlight and for maybe an hour after will hold 20degF higher than outside temps, but at night only 5degF higher which is the problem, as so far this fall i'm already avg. 45 deg nights, and hit 30 deg last night....if i continue running a space heater out there it's gonna get expensive...
 
I think that the black barrel would work to a minor degree, it takes up space that you are currently paying for being heated. Having said that the water in the barrel has to be heated too. The best thing you could do is to fill up any unused space with polystyrene blocks so you have less air space to keep heated.
People use this idea for freezers/fridges that are nearly empty but must be kept running. Basically you want as little un-used space in the room as possible.

Sorry don't know squat about the sun.
 
hotenuff,

You will get about 460 BTUs of heat for every degree you increase the water in the 55 gallon barrel. If you can increase the temps 20 degrees (it would take a very sunny day to do this), that would give you about 9,200 BTUs.

I figure that if you have 32 sq. ft. of exposed window space (4x8') with two layers of six mil plastic, the lowest temp is 35 degrees and you want to keep it 80 degrees inside, you will need about 1,000 BTUs of heat per hour. (See this link to calculate). An electric heater will produce about 3.4 BTUs per watt so a 300 watt heater would be enough. It would cost you about $2.50/wk. if you run it 12 hours a day.

The water barrel will help but once the sun quits heating up the room, the water is going to start losing heat. And from the middle of December until the middle of January, you will not get many hours of sunlight a day (On some days, hardly any!).

Hope all this helps.

Mike
 
I don't really have any helpful info, but....The begonias planted a few inches from my above ground pool are still alive and flowering. Everything else has long been dead.
 
I Like this subject I am not experienced on this and will be reseatching this for sure. 2.50$ a week doesn't seem so bad to keep your plants alive.
 
hotenuff4u said:
i'm attempting to track where and when the sun is going to be facing inside my "patio greenhouse" of my apartment.

looking at a few charts and graphs online, i basically feel like i must be an idiot. does anyone know of a "lamen's" version that might let a goober like me understand it better?

basically trying to figure out if i can use any type of solar energy system, weather using thermal heat storage, or other source of thermal energy, and figure which may work best for me....i'm about to just give up all together and just throw a giant black barrel full of water out there and keep my fingers crossed

changing subjects though, has anyone had any luck with any particular variations of DIY thermal heat units or any tricks or mods to the "black barrel full of water" that they've noticed increases efficiency?

my now sealed in patio during direct sunlight and for maybe an hour after will hold 20degF higher than outside temps, but at night only 5degF higher which is the problem, as so far this fall i'm already avg. 45 deg nights, and hit 30 deg last night....if i continue running a space heater out there it's gonna get expensive...
Click to expand...

Have you used any of the following tools?

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/SunChartRS.htm

Is your barrel plastic or metal?


~DiggingDog
 
Not sure if your just trying to heat the water, but I have a few LARGE fish tanks my biggest being 180 gallons and I use 1 1000 watt heater to heat it. Might be an option to keep the water heated if the sun doesn't keep it hot enough.
 
If (or maybe I should say when) I build a solar heating system for my GH, I will use a water heater. 1) They are insulated. 2) They have an intake at the top and the bottom. I would run a black garden hose back and forth across the back of the wall or along the ceiling - someplace where it would get as much sun as possible yet not interfere with my plants. A small pump would pull water from the bottom of the heater and force it through the hose, with the return going into the top. I would have another hose that would run from the top, again with a pump, that would pump the water through small radiators, sort of like those used to heat automobiles. Both pumps would be thermostatically controlled.

To me, the advantages of a water heater over a barrel are numerous: They take up less room, water will not evaporate, when the water gets warmer than the air it will not start giving up its heat, they can be set out of the way so the area where the sun shines can be taken up by plants.

I had a neighbor (who was a rocket scientist) that did a calculation for me many moons ago. He figured that with the amount of room I had for a collector, I could raise the water temperature in my 22,500 gallon swimming pool 1-2 degrees a day. That's not a lot, but then again, water heaters don't tend to hold that much water.

The key would be have both a pump that doesn't move a large volume of water per minute and enough hosing to have a huge collection area.

As soon as some neighbor sets out an old water heater, I plan on starting this!

Mike
 
yeah, it's a metal barrel, and i found a brand new 65 gallon with a sealing lock and an auto pressure release valve for FREE....my lucky ass...and it's already painted black :)....i'm going to get up early one of these mornings and start filling this guy with hot water right as the sun is rising so my temperatures can start ahead....i was told this barrel full of water will be close to 400lbs!...i was too lazy to do the math, just assumed it sounded right

anyway, i'll let you know what kind of difference it makes as a scientific comparison, then i'll add the insulation and record that as well
 
Try a little over 550 pounds! A gallon of water is suppose to weigh 8.3 pounds (I always thought it was 8 pounds) but 8 * 65 = 520.

Mike
 
DiggingDogFarm! that's some badass linkage right there thank you!!!!


p.s. i just found something called a drum heater. It's like a little metal belt that is made for 55-65 gallon drums, will heat the entire drum to 120F controlled by a thermostat and is less than 300 watts......i know my original plan was to use some free or green energy, but if this little mini heater is holding 65 gallons at 120F for under 300 watts, i can just get rid of my 1500watt space heater all together and have tons of heat for CHEAP!
 
hotenuff,

Maybe there are newer products I am unaware of, but most 300 watt drum heaters are made to heat a 5 gallon bucket. This makes sense: it takes one BTU to raise the temperature of one pound of water one degree. A watt of electrical power produces ~3.4 BTUs. To raise 55 gallons of water one degree, it would take about 440 BTUs. To raise it 20 degrees requires 8800 BTUs. The 300 watt heater will deliver ~1020 BTUs.

Mike
 
your right that does make sense

but but wouldn't it eventually get to 120F? or would the heat start escaping through the barrel and it level off? i mean water is the best thermal mass you can get, i would think it would hold its temperature well, and just keep absorbing heat from the drum heater, it would eventually be 120F?

but then again what you say does make sense...it's a little confusing if you think about it...it probably has something to do with the amount of time it takes 1btu to heat 1 lb water. that same lb of water could be heated 2 deg in twice the time(roughly) or 20deg in 20xtime(roughly) i guess i could see if it was a 1000gallon drum that maybe heat would be lost faster than it could be created, but 65 gallon shouldn't lose heat that fast

again, i guess this whole thing will be a fun experiment...when i get the heater
 
hotenuff,

Good questions! Most BTU ratings are per hour, so a 1 BTU heater would take an hour to raise one gallon of water 1 degree (but as the water warms, I believe it weighs a little less), if all the heat goes into the water.

In theory, if one was to heat a gallon of water with a 10 BTU heater, and not lose any heat at all from the water or outside areas, the temps in time could get to the point of exploding (I actually saw a reference to an article about solar water bombs!).

The water in your situation could get to 120 degrees but it will start giving up heat once its temp gets above the ambient air temp.

I'll make a deal with you, though it may take me a year to complete my end of it! Once I find a water heater, I'll try heating the water inside of it using black hose running back and forth, with the pump that circulates it set to a thermostat. We can measure the water temp when the outside air is a given temp range for a day.

I know that the last three days, temps in my GH have reached about 100 by noon or so without any other heat (outside temps have been in the upper 20s.) before I open the door a bit. It only stays there for about 4 hours but I suspect at the top and the back, where I would run the hose, it's at least 10 degrees warmer. Since a water heater is insulated, I won't lose hardly any heat during the warming process.

No doubt, it will never be 100 percent self-sufficient - too many days when the sun doesn't shine, not to mention a few evenings when it gets well below zero. But, if it saves me several thousand kW hours a month, it is worth it!

For the record, it is 38 outside and 62 inside my GH, running less than 1500 watts of electrical heaters.

Mike
 
wordwiz said:
hotenuff,

Good questions! Most BTU ratings are per hour, so a 1 BTU heater would take an hour to raise one gallon of water 1 degree
Click to expand...

1 BTU raises 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit. What you have written will be off by a factor of about 10.
 
just an update...wondering how much heat this guy is really giving off...I filled him with just under the full 65 gallons of boiling water (which took a little while, of course it wasn't still boiling by the time it was done, used a 7 gallon stockpot at a time). i didn't bother recording anything day 1 because i knew the inside temps of the water were going to drop a lot, but i wanted to give it a head start, instead of making it work the opposite way. So day to my heater is running roughly 22 minutes out of an hour when it's 35-40F outside. So i have noticed a change but not much....i haven't tried taking the temp of the water inside the sealed barrel, but it actually feels warm to the touch compared to the concrete patio, so it's working.......interesting

so i guess we can say, so far, we're looking at roughly a 10% increase in effeciency, from putting an airtight sealed 65 gallon black drum full of water in the "greenhouse" which from now on, i think the proper term should be a "greenshed" as it is a poor place to really have a greenhouse to begin with, lol
 
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