seeds Why organic seed?

[AJ Drew]

I can understand wanting food grown with only organic methods.  But a patron threw me for a loop today with a question about why organic seed stock is important.  I did not have an answer.  S/he seemed right in questioning why anyone would be concerned with such a tiny, trivial amount of residual pesticide or herbicide that might be in seeds.  What ever amount there is would surely be undetectable by the time the plant grows and fruits.
 
Other than houseplants, I use all organic methods.  Manually pull weeds, mulch the hell out of things.  Chicken and duck to manage pests.  Yard wast, compost, pond, and barn scrapings for nutrients.  I am not trashing on organic seeds, just wondering why someone would value them more.
 
BTW: I always try to buy organic.  Just kind of questioning why and I dont have a good answer other than my purchases encourage the method.

 

[dragonsfire]

I would think it has to do with mutations, the only thing I can think of, Organic might be stronger seeds. Mt 2cents

 

[charlie5heen]

I can understand wanting food grown with only organic methods.  But a patron threw me for a loop today with a question about why organic seed stock is important.  I did not have an answer.  S/he seemed right in questioning why anyone would be concerned with such a tiny, trivial amount of residual pesticide or herbicide that might be in seeds.  What ever amount there is would surely be undetectable by the time the plant grows and fruits.
 
Other than houseplants, I use all organic methods.  Manually pull weeds, mulch the hell out of things.  Chicken and duck to manage pests.  Yard wast, compost, pond, and barn scrapings for nutrients.  I am not trashing on organic seeds, just wondering why someone would value them more.
 
BTW: I always try to buy organic.  Just kind of questioning why and I dont have a good answer other than my purchases encourage the method.

I don't understand either because the herbicide or pesticide was probably metabolized by the plant or any other organism in the environment long before it reaches the seeds.  If we're worrying about trace chemicals, that seed turns into a plant several hundred times larger than the seed itself, thus diluting the chemical around the plant so at that point you'd have to eat thousands of more of peppers long before pesticide or herbicide would have any effect on you mentally or physically.  I do view organic gardening as something that is very important, but it is very hard work and I don't think 1/10000 of a picoliter of pesticide on a seed is going to cause any form of disease in a human.

I would think it has to do with mutations, the only thing I can think of, Organic might be stronger seeds. Mt 2cents

That may actually be true, but if we're talking about the effect of pesticide on human health transmitted by a seed, I highly doubt there is any damage done unless the person growing from seed sprays sevin on their peppers before they eat them.

 

[solid7]

Most people that I know who choose listed organic seed, do so as to not purchase GMO.

If that sort of thing is important to you, that would be one of the big reasons. 

 

[LocalFart]

Most people that I know who choose listed organic seed, do so as to not purchase GMO.
If that sort of thing is important to you, that would be one of the big reasons. 

 
Organic and GMO are two completely different things though?? You can have organic GMO fruit. Or are you saying that organic growers are less likely to use GMO products?

 

[solid7]

 
Organic and GMO are two completely different things though?? You can have organic GMO fruit. Or are you saying that organic growers are less likely to use GMO products?

 
Yes, I am very well aware that they are different things.  But you are absolutely incorrect in your assertion that you can have GMO organic.
 
https://gmo-awareness.com/2011/05/05/is-organic-always-gmo-free/
 

The United States and Canadian governments do NOT allow companies to label products “100% / Certified Organic” if they contain genetically modified foods.

 

[LocalFart]

 
Yes, I am very well aware that they are different things.  But you are absolutely incorrect in your assertion that you can have GMO organic.
 
https://gmo-awareness.com/2011/05/05/is-organic-always-gmo-free/
 

Wouldn't say absolutely incorrect... There are different countries out there other than the US and Canada. Sorry for asking the question. Buuuuut just pop 'define organic' into Google and you will see that the definition of Organic does not include mention of GMO.
organic

1. 
   
   2.
   
   
   (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial chemicals.
   
   
   
   

 
You can have organic Kale, Grapefruit and many breeds of tomatoes that are all GMO to an extent. 
 
Just thought I would put in my two cents as my grandparents are Organic farmers and have taught me the difference.
 
 
Now lets get back to the topic, no point in arguing on the internet.

 

[Jase4224]

A GMO plant can be grown in any method you choose to grow it.

I'll steer away from websites that are dedicated to take either sides on the GMO debate.

 

[solid7]

Sorry, but you're both wrong, in the context of THIS discussion.
 
Any certified organic products being sold in the United States - where this conversation is relevant - CANNOT be GMO.  This is not an opinion, this is a FACT.
 
Forget what your grandparents taught you, because it has to do with government approved labeling - not the heritage of your forefathers.  If you feel the need to be right, so be it, but you'll still be wrong about this.

 

[LocalFart]

Okay mate, I was just pointing out that that's not the law in alot of countries, didn't know that because the OP is American no one from the rest of the world can comment.

 

[solid7]

Okay mate, I was just pointing out that that's not the law in alot of countries, didn't know that because the OP is American no one from the rest of the world can comment.

 
LOL.  It's not that, bro.  It's just that I did cite a reference to American and Canadian law - and his location is right there by his avatar.

 

[LocalFart]

So you're saying that because the OP is American that no one from any other country can comment? Just asking so I don't upset someone by asking a question in the future.

 

[hardcore]

whats a s/he?    

 

[RobStar]

Okay mate, I was just pointing out that that's not the law in alot of countries, didn't know that because the OP is American no one from the rest of the world can comment.

 
It is.  The definition of organic excludes GMO.  Only countries where there is no legislation describing "organic" will GMO stand up as being organic because of farming methods only.  And frankly in those countries no-one gives a hoot: food is food.
 
But anyway back in this thread..............AJD, people mistakenly refer to organic as actually meaning "open-pollinated" or as I prefer to refer to them:  heirloom varieties.  The idea of open pollinated arose when people grew one kind of bean or tomato for home use - so in effect if the pollinator was buzzing all the tomatoes it wouldn't matter as they are all of the same variety - but because they haven't been line bred and/or hybridised the gene pool is more heterozygous. BUT (big but) any selection in a certain direction will narrow the gene pool. 
 
But this isn't the major issue - the reason why people prefer so-called organic (read: open pollinated/heirloom seeds) is that the seeds can be saved and your crop next season should pretty much be the same as the parents.  F1 seed = all manner of variation in F2 - you have no idea what you are going to get.  Most commercial seed is F1 - and you are trapped in a pit - dependence on seed merchant.

 

[Jase4224]

Speaking to other vegetable gardeners in Oz it seems that there is wide belief that organic/heirloom plants offer superior flavour, production and disease resistance. Also more variation in colours and shapes. Not my opinion but just seems to be the general consensus amongst people I have spoken to which is a lot.

Diggers Club Australia has done comparisons that show heirlooms in general taste better and produce over a longer period of time, at least for the varieties they compared.

As for GMO the point I was making is that it's possible to grow the plants out organically if you wish. Regardless of law, context, classification or whatever. Besides, many species contain genes from other organisms so it's not like humans are the first to cross dna between species. Not saying I support GMO but just not against it.

 

[solid7]

So you're saying that because the OP is American that no one from any other country can comment? Just asking so I don't upset someone by asking a question in the future.

 
No, I'm saying get off of it.  The OP is American, so I answered the question with that in mind.
 
If you ask an American in America why somebody packages and labels seed "organic" in America, then my answer stands.
 
You can answer any question you like, mate.  Just don't get butthurt if somebody points out that your answer is invalid, due to a regional difference.  I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, if you start a topic about what kind of water is used to make Fosters. LOL 

 
But this isn't the major issue - the reason why people prefer so-called organic (read: open pollinated/heirloom seeds) is that the seeds can be saved and your crop next season should pretty much be the same as the parents.  F1 seed = all manner of variation in F2 - you have no idea what you are going to get.  Most commercial seed is F1 - and you are trapped in a pit - dependence on seed merchant.

 
So, while I agree with what you've stated previously, I can't agree with this.  There are plenty of seeds that are sold as "heirloom", or even "open pollinated", but are not listed organic.
 
The other option that we have for labeling something "organic" (at least here in the states, lest I offend anyone else) is just pure marketing bullshit.  It's just a word that some people like to hear.  There aren't even good checks and balances in place for the certification, so I will use the phrase again - marketing bullshit.

 

[solid7]

As for GMO the point I was making is that it's possible to grow the plants out organically if you wish. Regardless of law, context, classification or whatever. 

 
Yeah, nobody is saying that's wrong.  But how does that apply to a seed that's still in a package?  We now have 2 people saying that "organic" by definition, excludes GMO.  So your seed package says "organic" - what does that mean, actually?  (because that's the point we're getting at)

I'm not afraid of a little fact checking...

 

[RobStar]

So, while I agree with what you've stated previously, I can't agree with this.  There are plenty of seeds that are sold as "heirloom", or even "open pollinated", but are not listed organic.
 
The other option that we have for labeling something "organic" (at least here in the states, lest I offend anyone else) is just pure marketing bullshit.  It's just a word that some people like to hear.  There aren't even good checks and balances in place for the certification, so I will use the phrase again - marketing bullshit.

 
There is no thing such as "organic" seed - I agree fully it is marketing BS.  People will claim because it was grown on an organic certified farm it is organic seed. But WTF does that mean?  If I grow it conventionally is it still "organic"?  No it isn't.  If you live within a few miles of a highway your produce cannot be certified organic.  If your neighbour does not practice organic agriculture you produce cannot be certified organic.
 
When the average person asks for organic seed what they actually mean is open pollinated/heirloom seed.  In other words: not F1 hybrids or GMO.  
 
Only kooks with tinfoil pyramids on their heads believe they are producing "organic" veg in their suburban garden.

 

[Hybrid Mode 01]

     To AJ: I thought "organic seed" meant that the seeds have not been treated with fungicides and junk.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
  
 
Only kooks with tinfoil pyramids on their heads believe they are producing "organic" veg in their suburban garden.

 
 
     lol. I grow in a town of about 25k, using no insecticides, fungicides or salt fertilizers. I call my produce organic all the time. Maybe you can help me find my misplaced hat...

 

[Bicycle808]

When dealing with foodstuffs, there are strict rules regarding how/when the term "organic" can be used.  And, as of right now, Certified Organic foodstuffs sold in the USA (and possibly elsewhere) cannot contain GMOs.  But, there is already a push and some legislation being drafted for the Organic cert to allow GMOs.  GMO opponents are already fighting it.  I'm not trying to take sides; that's just where we're at, right now.
 
I'll have to look into use of the term "organic" as it applies to seeds.  I'm pretty sure that the USDA regulates organic foodstuffs, but the NOP sets guidelines for organic seeds?  (Not entirely sure about all this; it's not a huge deal to me.... just something that i find interesting.)  But, how well-regulated are seed distributors? There are certainly counterfeit "organic" foods being sold, despite strict regulations and oversight.  What's to stop an unscrupulous seed distributor from printing the word "organic" on the label of a seed packet?  Who is going to check into it, and how would they?  I don't think the NOP has the same kinda "teeth" as the USDA (of which the NOP is a offshoot) or the FDA.
 
But yeah, as someone who associates some hardline organic enthusiasts/ GMO opponents, I can tell you that customers who are demanding organic seeds are concerned about GMOs.  Organic produce can be about the fertilizers, herbicides/pesticides, and GMOs, but with seeds, the GMOs are the main factor.