capsaicin capsaicin analysis - Jonah and Butch T fresh pods

Aussie

Aussie

We just did an analysis of the capsaicin content of a fresh Jonah pod (seeds from Semillas) and a fresh TS Butch T pod (seeds from Hippy Seed Co) from plants grown side-by-side. Here are some initial observations:
 
  • the Butch T pod has a slightly higher total capsaicin content than the Jonah;
  • the Butch T pod has a roughly 2:1 ratio of capsaicin to dihydrocapsaicin, whereas the Jonah contains mainly capsaicin and only a small amount of dihydrocapsaicin; 
  • both contain small amounts of other analogues, which we have not identified.
 
I guess that very few forum members would be interested in analysing the NMR spectra but I'm happy to post them if anyone would like to see them. 
 
The lack of dihydrocapsaicin in the Jonah pod is interesting. Habaneros generally have a 60:40 ratio of capsaicin:dihydrocapsaicin, which is mentioned here:  http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/ed1006025
 
I don't know if the capsaicin:dihydrocapsaicin ratio would be different in pods from the same plant grown at the same time. People have talked about variation in heat from pod to pod from the same plant, so we'll have to look at some more pods to see if this is a general trend. 
 
Does anyone have suggestions for other tests?
 
 
The only test that counts for most.
 
Put one in mouth.
Though the ratio of the various alkaloyds would make an interesting study as to their taste and sensation.
 
Nice info,
 
the differences in capsaicinoids content should sugget something on the genetics that led to those varieties, e.g. capsicum frutescens is known to have higher dihydrocapsaicin than chinense if i remember right.
 
Cya
 
Datil
 
Might not be the kind of thing you're after, but I've read somewhere that growing conditions such as availability of water can influence Capsaicin content, I wonder if these conditions can also lead to varying levels and ratios of Capsaicinoids.  For example, you could set up grow plots with varying levels of nutrient deficiencies.
 
I could supply you with both, from the place the "Butch T" originated from and with Jonahs that are grown here
too if your interested, as long as dried or ground is acceptiable.
 
Butch T
 
mememe said:
If you could post the NMR spectra it would be neat.
Click to expand...
 
Sure! Here are the 1H NMR spectra at 400 MHz in CDCl3:
 
Jonah
 

 
 
Butch T
 

 
 
 
The large doublet at 0.95 ppm or thereabouts is due to capsaicin, the one at about 0.85 ppm is from the dihydrocapsaicin. The size of each doublet relates to the amount of the compound in the sample.

Tigahb8 said:
I could supply you with both, from the place the "Butch T" originated from and with Jonahs that are grown here
too if your interested, as long as dried or ground is acceptiable.
 
Butch T
Click to expand...
 
Hey Butch, that would be great! I will send a PM.
 
Mick

Datil said:
Nice info,
 
the differences in capsaicinoids content should sugget something on the genetics that led to those varieties, e.g. capsicum frutescens is known to have higher dihydrocapsaicin than chinense if i remember right.
 
Cya
 
Datil
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Datil, I will look into this.

Spicegeist said:
Might not be the kind of thing you're after, but I've read somewhere that growing conditions such as availability of water can influence Capsaicin content, I wonder if these conditions can also lead to varying levels and ratios of Capsaicinoids.  For example, you could set up grow plots with varying levels of nutrient deficiencies.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Spicegeist, I will have a think about setting something up for next year. Will be starting my 2013-4 grow in a couple of months.

Gotrox said:
The only test that counts for most.
 
Put one in mouth.
Though the ratio of the various alkaloyds would make an interesting study as to their taste and sensation.
Click to expand...
 
I agree! That's why I did the analysis.
 
Interesting stuff, thanks.

Have you done any studying of c.pubescens? I think they are supposed to have the more varied profile.
 
StupidJerk said:
Interesting stuff, thanks.

Have you done any studying of c.pubescens? I think they are supposed to have the more varied profile.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks SJ, I have some fresh rocotos picked and will let you know soon.
 
Good question, MrBig. As you may know, the method currently favoured is based upon HPLC (High Performance Liquid Chromatography). As far as I can tell, the currently accepted analytical protocol to determine pungency in Scoville units is one introduced by the American Spice Trade Association (ASTA). Unfortunately, the protocol is not freely available to the public. You have to be a member of ASTA to access the information on how they do the analysis. Here is a the link to the page listing all ASTA methods. The one that we're interested in is Method 21.3:
 
http://www.astaspice.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3745
 
If there are any ASTA members out there who have this information (or can access it) and are willing and legally able to share it with me, then please do so. I have already sent an email message to ASTA to request that they email the method to me. If they do so, I will have a go at the conversion that you request. I will also ask if they are happy for their protocol to be discussed on this forum. 
 
An update.
 
We have tested other Jonah and Butch T pods from the same plants and I can now confirm that the capsaicin:dihydrocapsaicin ratio is consistent, i.e. the Jonah has much less dihydrocapsaicin than the TS Butch T.
 
I have not received a reply from ASTA, so I can't do the conversion into Scovilles using their method.
 
I can tell you that from a fresh 9.5 gram Jonah pod, we extracted around 95 mg of capsaicins, which was mainly capsaicin itself. This means that the fresh pod has a rating of roughly (0.095/9.5)*16,000,000=160,000 Scoville units. Either the conditions that I am growing these plants is not optimal, or the "official" testing is done on dried pods, rather than fresh ones. 
 
This is the Holy Grail!  By knowing the concentrations of the varioucapsicanoids we can breed better and better chili.
 
In Bosland and De Witt it states that "The major capsaicinoids contained in the crystalline extract and their percentages are capsaicin (69 percent), dihydrocapsaicin (22 percent), and three minor related components: nordihydrocapsaicin (7 percent), homocapsaicin (1 percent), and homo-dihydrocapsaicin (1 percent)".
 
Now that is quite consistent with your findings of the Butch T (for capsaicin and DHC)
 
Also they state "The mildest capsaicinoid was nordihydrocapsaicin (NDHC), which was described as “the least irritating” and “fruity, sweet, and spicy.” Next was homodihydrocapsaicin (HDHC), a compound described as “very irritating,” and one that produced a “numbing burn” in the throat, which also was the most  prolonged and difficult to rinse out. The two most fiery capsaicinoid compounds were capsaicin (C) and dihydrocapsaicin (DHC), which produced burning everywhere from the mid-tongue and palate down into the throat. Evidently, all of the capsaicinoids work together to produce the pungency of peppers, but capsaicin itself is still rated the strongest."
 
Now.  This is where it all gets very interesting.  Ever since reading this I have been conciously trying to profile each of these chemicals in the chile - I could be seriously toking on goat's weed here but I'm quite convinced that I am able to "taste" each of these.  I know that DHC gives the double-burn - hammers you on the front of the tongue and then subsides into a burn gradually starting in the back of the mouth and then building to a decent scorch (I read this somewhere!)
 
Now.  Think of the burn of a Butch T - a very fruity flavour, followed by the peppery burn on the tip of your tongue, followed by a whole-mouth feel burn!  And then the sides and back of the togue and then the throat - very harsh in the throat.  And then the burn grows.  It probably has the most close fit analogue to pure crystalline capsicanoid!  Just think of all those chemicals together and you will see how it fits the picture.
 
Now.  Think Aji Dulce or any very mild chinense - NDHC is obviously well-developed and the others barely so.
 
See where I'm going with this?  Aussie can you nalyse for the other capsicanoids as well?  It would be very interesting to know what is going on with the others!  By knowing this we can breed better chili for whatever purpose.
 
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