LED users out there need some advice

No way 5mm LEDS are going to do what they advertise - 1-4ft away from plants.
Try 1-4 inches away from plants...

I use 5mm LEDS on starts.
125 LEDS per on a 4in X 3in Perf Board.

18 panels with 125 , 5mm LEDS on each-stretched to the max.
Just before I put stars and 10mm LEDS over the plant.




Different plant,same setup with 10mm up top.





That is 2000+ , 5mm LEDS and 150 or so 10mm up top...

The 10mm are 40 degree angle and could be at MOST a few feet away from the plant but still 1 panel of them wouldn't be enough.
A group effort...The second plant with several 10mm panels around it.4,4ft T12's above.








This plant could have easily used more light...It WAS fun though.
Plant filled a Van when I gave it a new home.
About 5ft tall and maybe 6+wide.
 
I'm inclined to agree with smokemaster on the height. I'm growing under my old aquarium coral grow light LEDs. I try to keep them about 3 or so inches away from the plants. You will not get good light coverage unless you're growing small numbers of plants in small cups. Mine are rectangular and I have 3 18 oz solo cups under one and 2 under the other. Those lights you were looking at are 12"X12" so maybe you could do 9 seedlings in the little clear plastic cups per light.
 
The only reason I have any 5mm Leds is I wanted to test out all the conflicting wavelength stuff posted on the net 5+ yrs ago.
5mm are cheep.I got 2000 for 40 bucks max or cheeper.
They also come in more wavelengths than 10mm or stars.

I used 99cent store plastic shoe boxes lined with foil fot the different wave lengths of LEDs on different perf boards.





Messed with the 5mm for a few seasons then went to 3 watt leds but found 1 watt LEDS were more Lumens at the same wave lengths so I now play with them.
10mm LEDS are a LOT higher in Lumen and 30-40 degree angles but come in less wave lengths.

Now I play with a combination of 10mm and stars.

White LEDS show a lot of promise lately in lumens and k.

I see red and blue panels soon to be extinct IF the white LEDS are really doing what they seem to do.
I tried several K of white LEDS along the line but they sucked in the past.
Now the spotlight stuff has seemed to be a lot better for decent prices.

White for LEDS is really a combo of red and blue.There is no such thing as a white LED.

I like LEDS.
You just have to know what you made and how to use the specific ones you have.
They aren't a replacement for any other light source,just another option.
It depends on your grow.Your light needs etc.
 
+1 to everything posted. Some people will tell you that HID is more efficient. Maybe it is but you can't get HID that close to plants and when you consider the inverse square law you realize that HID is not THAT efficient.

I recommend building your own. It is now easy and you'll save money and get better quality. BTW what you read 2 years ago about growing with LEDs doesn't apply now. The tech is constantly improving. I built a fixture out of white leds that seemed to have the perfect K. Worked great!
 
frosty said:
+1 to everything posted. Some people will tell you that HID is more efficient. Maybe it is but you can't get HID that close to plants and when you consider the inverse square law you realize that HID is not THAT efficient.

I recommend building your own. It is now easy and you'll save money and get better quality. BTW what you read 2 years ago about growing with LEDs doesn't apply now. The tech is constantly improving. I built a fixture out of white leds that seemed to have the perfect K. Worked great!
Agree 100%. When I still had my reef tank I was considering building my own to supplement my existing LEDs. When I had a reef tank I grew acropora coral. They have a higher light demand than any plant. Previous to led I ran MH lights. My electric bill cut by $30 a month when I switched to LED and there's a fraction of the heat output. So as far as efficiency goes they are the most efficient.
 
I work with LEDs as well, I built a panel myself and it works like a charm. I'm using it now for the mean time on 5 plants, I'm gona build a bigger one but with 1W. I have 15x 3W LED, one blue for every two red. And reds are 2 different wavelengths. Here's a few pics.

20130903_080140.jpg


20130902_231511.jpg


45W only, interesting.

, Walter
 
Smokemaster and Vegas_Chili...  Y'alls setups look great!!  I would like to ask a favor of Smokemaster though...  Where can I find the schematics and information to make some of the panels that you have?  That is very close to what I've planned on doing here at work to grow a couple plants with the LED's in the pots and around the plants.
 
Pebcak said:
Smokemaster and Vegas_Chili...  Y'alls setups look great!!  I would like to ask a favor of Smokemaster though...  Where can I find the schematics and information to make some of the panels that you have?  That is very close to what I've planned on doing here at work to grow a couple plants with the LED's in the pots and around the plants.
I could probably answer part of your question. Smokemaster is a LED guru, he knows all and has been playing around with them a lot more than me.

Your question. From what I researched, you need to know about resistance and OHM's law to determine what size resistor for each closed circuit. I found that being a bit complex but still doable, and I wouldn't trust myself with that. I wouldn't want to risk burning my apartment/home down. Of course if you do your calculations right and put it together right, you shouldn't worry about it going bad or en in a short circuit.

Me? I just went with a LED driver. Plug and play and less risk of having a short circuit.

I bet Smoke has his point of view and I'd like to hear what he has to say since I'm close to try and do another panel. Only this time bigger.

, Walter
 
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&site=&source=hp&q=diy+led+grow+light&oq=DIY+LED&gs_l=hp.1.0.0l10.4721.10218.0.17090.7.7.0.0.0.0.218.942.2j4j1.7.0....0...1c.1.26.hp..2.5.669.i9LHHe9h69I

http://www.instructables.com/id/Introduction-to-LED-grow-lights/

http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz

http://www.dannyg.com/examples/res2/resistor.htm

http://unclean.org/howto/led_circuit.html

http://www.qsl.net/yo5ofh/hobby%20circuits/led_circuits.htm

http://www.ngineering.com/led_calculators.htm

http://www.alldatasheet.com/view.jsp?Searchword=LM317

Tons of LED stuff out there on google.
I use 1 watt LEDS,they don't need cooling the way I made them.
I'd have to use fans if I boxed them.
The 10mm LEDS should be cooled though.They don't have a sheet of metal to dissipate the heat.

I'm still pretty good at letting the smoke out of a few LEDs here and there.

I use the calculators above to figure out the resistors to use.
I use LM 317 and resistors.
Computer power supplies from the surplus shop are my power source.
12 volt,12amp and 24 volt,3A or so.
They cost under $20.00-$30.00 each.

I never found a driver that could run 50-55 1 Watt LEDS.
Using a couple drivers per panel wasn't what I could use.
I want to run 4 1 watt panels horizontally and 6 10mm panels vertically on my grow shelves.
I'm trying to get as many wave lengths of Blue from 450nm - 475nm and red on 620nm - 670nm.

I'd go with Drivers if you can use them for the panels you want to make.
Prices for drivers has really dropped from when I first started messing with LEDs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copied from an old site that seems to be gone now:
Light Wave Lengths for plants

400 - 520 nm This range includes violet, blue, and green bands. Peak absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and a strong influence on photosynthesis. (promotes vegetative growth)

520 - 610 nm This range includes the green, yellow, and orange bands and has less absorption by pigments.

610 - 720 nm This is the red band. Large amount of absorption by chlorophyll occurs, and most significant influence on photosynthesis. (promotes flowering and budding) The ratio of red (660nm) to far red (730nm) in sunlight is about 1.2:1

720 - 1000 nm There is little absorption by Chlorophyll here, but Phytochrome uses a nice portion. Flowering and germination is influenced. Near and above the higher end of the band is the Infrared spectrum, which can also be heat and could cause elongation or affect water absorption/transpiration.

Many of these plant pigments have dual wavelength peaks that can be activated with led light combinations:The visible colors of light from shortest to longest wavelength are: violet, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red. Ultraviolet radiation has a shorter wavelength than the visible violet light. Infrared radiation has a longer wavelength than visible red light. White light is

Beta-carotene 450nm 480-485nm dual peak
chlorophyll a 430nm 662nm dual peak
chlorophyll b 453nm 642nm dual peak
phycoerythrin 590nm single peak
phycocyanin 625nm single peak
a mixture of the colors of the visible spectrum. Here is a summary of wavelengths (nm). If you are building your own LED Grow Lights it may be of help when selecting LEDs for your project.
 
HOLY HOSSENFEFFER!!!!  That's more information on "applicable" LED use than I've been able to find in awhile!!!
 
What I edited..
 
I have found that Instructable before and I liked it.  For some reson I like the look and functionality of yours on the PCBs instead of making my own board.  Love the idea of placing them at 45 degree angles around the base!!  That is something I didn't read about via Google.   Maybe I'm just blind..  But hey.. I'm here to learn...
 
I really like the LED series Parallel page though.  Bookmarked....
 
Honestly, the meat and potatos portion I liked was your insight...
 
"I use 1 watt LEDS,they don't need cooling the way I made them.
etc etc etc
Prices for drivers has really dropped from when I first started messing with LEDs."
 
Lastly....   Your statement about "White for LEDS is really a combo of red and blue.There is no such thing as a white LED." has piqued my interest to research a little more before starting any purchasing.  Instead of going Red and Blue like a lot of sites say I'm going to look into what you've touched upon.
 
Thank you for taking your time to answer some questions!
 
These are cheap.
I might get one to see if they are cool...

http://www.amazon.com/Spotlight-Garden-Outdoor-Waterproof-Floodlight/dp/B007HZEJG2/ref=pd_cp_hi_1

http://www.amazon.com/White-Flood-Light-Spotlight-Outdoor/dp/B007HZB4MO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378322286&sr=8-1&keywords=20+watt+led+floodlight

50 watts

http://www.amazon.com/White-Flood-Light-Spotlight-Outdoor/dp/B007HZB4MO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378322286&sr=8-1&keywords=20+watt+led+floodlight

http://www.amazon.com/Spotlight-Flood-Light-Power-Outdoor/dp/B007CEVJKW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378322703&sr=8-1&keywords=led+flood+light+50w

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/waterproof-50w-led-flood-light

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/889509533/50w_led_flood_light_30w_50w.html

Seems you can get a choice of K and from 10W-50W for about $40.00 + free shipping.
One of these days i think I'll get a couple 50W ones,one in cool white and 1 in warm to play with.

I guess you could buy the $10.00 1W ones to mix up the K.
A few places had discounts for buying 5+ of them.
It might be cheaper to get the 10W ones and just use more,I don't know.

It seems it might allow you to overlap your plants from different angles better than using 1 single higher watt spot light.
It would probably depend on the area you are lighting...the space involved,plug ins etc.
I'm sure they get hot,gotta see how hot if in a public area/traffic area.
On shelves you might have to let them cool before you water...

Spots were 2-3X that price for the small ones not that long ago...

About LEDS-See what is white light.

http://www.activeled.com/technology/

Side note about the 7in. X 12in. Perf Boards.

They Flex when handled = breaks a lot of solder connections.
One of these days I'll frame them in with something so they can't flex easily.
For now I just keep re soldering the string that has a broken link. :)

I keep looking at the 50 watt ones...They keep talking to me...buy meeeee.
I have a Rocoto indoors that needs more lighting.
Spots would be so much easier to mess with...

They were $70.00+ last time I looked at them quit some time ago...

I might just have to get a couple new toys. LOL
 
I was looking at these just now myself.  I was thinking of putting them above for two pots here at my office.  It's a 6x3x6 space.  I have a dedicated 6 outlet 1500 watt Tripp Lite UPS to use plugged into a 30 amp outlet.. :)  Benefits of being an IT guy with spare equipment.. LOL
 
I'm just looking right now though..  Making a wish list and pairing down and altering as I research more.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-Cool-White-50W-Floodlight-LED-Flood-Light-Outdoor-Lamp-IP65-Waterproof-NEW-/141050089366
 
Before I read about the white light I was looking at two of these to use from above.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121145234785?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
 
In the Immortal words of Jack Nicholson...  "Where Does He Get All Those Wonderful Toys?"
 
Don't forget.I've never used any white LEDS except 10mm.
They weren't bright enough or were the wrong K.
I don't know,they didn't work at all.

I look at it as 2+ X the Lumens as Fluoros at about the same watts,depends on the bulb used I guess,T12 are different from T8 etc.
ALL the light is focused forward(less waste).

I'll use the CD spectrometer to see the thickness of the bands of color.

Another fun toy-

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/18066359/Einstein-Award-‐-pre-visit-lesson-plan-CD-Spectrometer

If they don't work,they'll make good yard lights or something.Sell them to a guy who owns a boat and needs deck lights...
I know guys switching to LED spots on their boats.
The only complaint I heard was that some have a LOT of blue in them.
At night trying to select a certain shade of a color lure gets hard with the blue light messing with what you are trying to see.Especially if you are looking for a shade of a color...
Most people liked them and said they were as bright as what they had before(halides or Halogens of some type).

I do think it's worth the risk to buy them though.
I'm reading about a lot of people using the bigger ones with good results.
I think some Pot farmers in Europe were stealing cars to get the Headlights to grow their plants under.
I think headlights were supposed to be halogen.

All the newer motorhomes are LEDs for lighting,including turn signals.
I haven't seen them with LED headlights yet.
They are replacing all the street lights here with LEDS lately.
I think there is less glare too from them.

Tech with LEDS is changing all the time.
I'd like to see what the street lights have in them.They look like 6 LEDS(maybe 8,I forget).
Easily as bright or brighter than the old ones.

He who dies with the most toys wins.
An old bumper sticker I saw on a motorhome once.

I've seen mixed results from the screw in bulbs.
A LOT are junk or WERE junk a few years ago.
On other forums I see guys using them like the compact bulbs but get a LOT better results.They build multi bulb fixture with 4 of the bulbs for tents etc.
Years ago they mostly did well but fried in a few months.
I think for even China,quality control is way up from the past.
I use only Chinese LEDS and the ones that fried were due to me overdriving them.
Chinese data sheets suck.
Gotta do the math.Volts X amps.=watts.
If a data sheet runs the LED hotter it's because it was pulsed to get the data to look like the LED was something it isn't,unless it's pulsed.
Pulsing LEDS is GREAT for room lighting,it increases Lumens but plants won't grow under pulsed light.
From what I understand,Light causes a chemical or whatever reaction in plants.
Constant light gets photosynthesis going.Pulsed light won't work.The plant doesn't have time enough to react to it.
 
smokemaster said:
Don't forget.I've never used any white LEDS except 10mm.
They weren't bright enough or were the wrong K.
I don't know,they didn't work at all.
..........................
He who dies with the most toys wins.
An old bumper sticker I saw on a motorhome once.
 
 
Since you were talking about the White LED lights..  I did some searching and looking around.  This looks like it meets the criteria for white instead of going red and blue.  Would this be something like what you're talking about?
 
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=310
 
Also I read an article that makes a little sense with the limited knowledge I have..  Article is here:
 
http://www.dormgrow.com/blog/led-grow-lights/3-watt-vs-5-watt-diodes-for-led-grow-lights/
 
 
So, In the end I'm thinking of getting the above mentioned and maybe add this too it as well.  
 
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=263
 
My problem is that I want it all......
 
Lastly,  My wife has a Gardenia Tree and I'm thinking of taking a cutting off of it and trying to grow another and surprise her for spring while I grow the Butch T or Ghost plant.
 
The White LEDs we are talking about look white or blue white.
They are a mix of red,blue and green to make white LED lights.

Kinda like mixing paint.A LOT of color tints you don't see are needed to even make that white shade you want-black red blue,yellow,green,purple or whatever.
All you see is eggshell white but all those colors are in it.

Link from above about white LEDs.

http://www.activeled.com/technology/

We are talking about using cool white - 5000K - 6500K LED flood lights like you would use to light your yard with.

Link from above-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-Cool-White-50W-Floodlight-LED-Flood-Light-Outdoor-Lamp-IP65-Waterproof-NEW-/141050089366

The ones in the above link are 6000-6500 K ,and about 4500Lumens(most Fluoros are 2800-3200LM in general).
Fluoros don't put most of their light in one direction,None behind the bulb like most other sources of light.
LEDs are more better as far as wasted light goes.Reflected light is not as good as direct light from the source.

Don;t just buy any LED 50watt light.Read the specs.SOME are only 700LM or are warm white as low as 2000K.
For me 5000K - 6500K works best for PEPPERS (other plants need different light wave lengths,peppers don't.

Watts in this case is what the light uses,has no bearing on Lumen Output.
5o Watt lights that look the same can still be 5000K but can be only 700 lumens-not good...

Using Watts as a measure of light output is Sometimes confusing.
Vendors use the power their light uses in wats like it means their light is better when in fact it only spins your meter faster.
I guess there is a measure of light in watts but most advertising isn't that at all.It's a measure of what the panel uses.
I have 1 watt LEDS that put out 80LM. and 3 watt LEDS that put out 35Lumen.
I choose the 1 watt ones...if both are the same angle etc.
 
Ok.. That's where I messed up in my thinking.. I got all excited about the white and I was focusing on watts...  
 
Again. I appreciate you (hopefully) not being annoyed and reiterating what you've said earlier in the post about the "http://www.activeled.com/technology/".  
 
I've been sitting on the site A LOT the last couple of days and I've been reading and seeing all the success that everyone has had and I want to be at y'alls point a year ago.  
 
Back when I messed it up the first time.  I'm thinking where my issue was before is that #1. I didn't have enough light.  #2 I had the wrong light.  #3 Didn't keep the soil/roots warm enough.  and possibly why my flowers kept falling off. #4 Didn't manually pollinate or have a fan running.
 
smokemaster said:
The White LEDs we are talking about look white or blue white.
They are a mix of red,blue and green to make white LED lights.

Kinda like mixing paint.A LOT of color tints you don't see are needed to even make that white shade you want-black red blue,yellow,green,purple or whatever.
All you see is eggshell white but all those colors are in it.

Link from above about white LEDs.

http://www.activeled.com/technology/

We are talking about using cool white - 5000K - 6500K LED flood lights like you would use to light your yard with.

Link from above-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-Cool-White-50W-Floodlight-LED-Flood-Light-Outdoor-Lamp-IP65-Waterproof-NEW-/141050089366

The ones in the above link are 6000-6500 K ,and about 4500Lumens(most Fluoros are 2800-3200LM in general).
Fluoros don't put most of their light in one direction,None behind the bulb like most other sources of light.
LEDs are more better as far as wasted light goes.Reflected light is not as good as direct light from the source.

Don;t just buy any LED 50watt light.Read the specs.SOME are only 700LM or are warm white as low as 2000K.
For me 5000K - 6500K works best for PEPPERS (other plants need different light wave lengths,peppers don't.

Watts in this case is what the light uses,has no bearing on Lumen Output.
5o Watt lights that look the same can still be 5000K but can be only 700 lumens-not good...

Using Watts as a measure of light output is Sometimes confusing.
Vendors use the power their light uses in wats like it means their light is better when in fact it only spins your meter faster.
I guess there is a measure of light in watts but most advertising isn't that at all.It's a measure of what the panel uses.
I have 1 watt LEDS that put out 80LM. and 3 watt LEDS that put out 35Lumen.
I choose the 1 watt ones...if both are the same angle etc.
 
As a side note -
ANY light source isn't suited for EVERY grow.

I have a windowless grow room.

T12's worked great,BUT they started selling T 8's and no T12's in what I wanted to use.
Basically was forced to go to T8 or T5's.
Couldn't afford the T5's.
T8's were way too hot and didn't come in the Lumens or K I like.
SOOOO,I started playing with LEDS.
I am not an expert by any means.
I used trial and error for several years.

I only know for the way I use them I get great results.
But for any other grow something might be better.
I only know peppers also,that is all I grow.

Too much stuff is out of context or comparing apples to oranges on the net.
Too many people had junk panels and believed the popular or vendors snake oil advertising and got burned.
They think all LEDS are like what they used and don't really know what they are talking about.
Tech has changed just in the few years I've played with the LEDs.

I do THINK,not know(I haven't played with them yet) that the high Lumen white LEDS will be better than a lot of light sources really soon,at least for stuff like peppers that aren't light specific to grow or bud.
I think to get peppers to do what you want nutes are more important than red or blue light for specific stages of growth.

What works for me might suck for you.I don't know what you expect from your light source or what your grow is.
 
I'm going to have a room with a window. Its going to be a 6x3x6 area and at the most I'm going to be growing only two plants.

I have no issue in taking your opinion and get the bulb and try it out. http://www.ebay.com/...W-/141050089366
Just think. The worst I'll get is a new flood light outside. LOL


smokemaster said:
As a side note -ANY light source isn't suited for EVERY grow.I have a windowless grow room.T12's worked great,BUT they started selling T 8's and no T12's in what I wanted to use.Basically was forced to go to T8 or T5's.Couldn't afford the T5's.T8's were way too hot and didn't come in the Lumens or K I like.SOOOO,I started playing with LEDS.I am not an expert by any means.I used trial and error for several years.I only know for the way I use them I get great results.But for any other grow something might be better.I only know peppers also,that is all I grow.Too much stuff is out of context or comparing apples to oranges on the net.Too many people had junk panels and believed the popular or vendors snake oil advertising and got burned.They think all LEDS are like what they used and don't really know what they are talking about.Tech has changed just in the few years I've played with the LEDs.I do THINK,not know(I haven't played with them yet) that the high Lumen white LEDS will be better than a lot of light sources really soon,at least for stuff like peppers that aren't light specific to grow or bud.I think to get peppers to do what you want nutes are more important than red or blue light for specific stages of growth.What works for me might suck for you.I don't know what you expect from your light source or what your grow is.
 
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