vendor Seed Prices

You might want to compare their prices to the prices for the same quantities of the same peppers from other suppliers such as Semillas or Pepperlover.  There are some signficant price differences.
Renais

True that and with them you even get the proper plants that go along with the variety you're growing (see complaints on the "help ID this pepper" section).
 
Peter (www.semillas.de) usually only asks 1.50 euro per 10 seeds. Superhots are not that bad to harvest seeds from, the pods are easy (large, usually quite some seeds in the 20-50 seeds range). Imagine Peter going to small mini pods like to capsicum rhomboideum, capsicum lanceolatum etc.. with only 3-8 seeds per pods. That's far more labor intensive and he can still keep the price down. Haven't had hands on experience with Judy (pepperlover) yet, but I hear she's great doing business with as well.
 
8 bucks for 10 seeds is a small investment if you only need THAT variety.. and it turns out exactly the way you want. But I'd rather increase my chances and buy 5 varieties from another vendor imho.

Yeah I don't know how Judy does it but when she charges, sometimes, half the price of almost all of the other vendors, gives twice as much and more seed plus free shipping. And to top it off always has crazy new varieties she is creating and releasing, it's really hard to justify using anyone else. On top of all of that, she tosses in extra freebies (sometimes crazy amounts). I like to try and use other vendors to spread the love around but I honestly use Judy every single time unless there's a variety she doesn't have.

Morale of the story.... Judy is the best

Jim Duffy had crazy sale where he tripled your order on black friday. And I think he doubles new customers orders always.

Pepperlover is consistently lower priced and always gives freebies from what I've seen.

I don't know why you would order from more expensive vendors.

Lots of factors: quantity, quality, ISO or OP, generic superhot or new hybrid, shipping free or extra? Many times when people do an SASBE, it can cost $3+ for two way shipping plus cost of bubble envelopes ($1-2) and your time. Trading is great, but support your local vendors too. It might just be cheaper! I think the market can easily bear $5-$8 for 10-15 of the most popular seeds, inclusive of shipping, if you're getting a quality product.

It seems to me that the 2 mentioned spend a lot of time/effort/money on packaging. I also took a look at the peppersbymail.com site. I think they(you) can justify the high price by creating and perpetuating the novelty approach to superhots. I give props to those who can sustain a business by those standards but people like Judy at pepperlover.com are more about perpetuating the pepper and all of the varieties there are. She doesn't waste energy on packaging. Instead she runs a simple website and puts her efforts towards making sure her customers are happy to the point of giving more than was asked for or paid for and in return gets awesome reviews from people like me. Brilliant marketing strategy if you ask me.
 
Edit: Sorry not meaning to disrespect anybody but that's just how I see it. Also, I know there are a few other seed vendors who practice the same as Judy but I've only dealt with her since joining this forum so cannot justify comments on the others.

Renais1 said:

You might want to compare their prices to the prices for the same quantities of the same peppers from other suppliers such as Semillas or Pepperlover.  There are some signficant price differences.
Renais

Click to expand...

Whoa. You are comparing apples and oranges. Pepper Joes and Pucker butt are for profit businesses. Judy isn't in it for the $$$. she does it cause she loves what she does and tries to pass it on to everyone. she however is not a charity and has to recoup something for her efforts.

Hawaiianero - Your post makes me awfully confused.  Also sad and a bit tearful.  You compared me to Judy.  She ranges $2.00 - $6.00 per pack of 20.  I range from $3.00 - $5.00 per pack of 20.  Not sure if she charges for shipping, but I do not.  So I am thinking we are comperable in price.  To say I perpetuate the higher prices is kind of misleading.

And this talk of fancy packaging?  I have ordered from both Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe. There is nothing fancy about their packaging.  From what I remember, seeds in small zipper lock, zipper lock in paper sleeve, name of seeds on the paper sleeve.  So I kind of feel you are trashing the effort I put into labeling.  Guy, most of that is what the state of Kentucky insists on.

Lot Number
Species
Variety
Season packed for
Statement of Origin

Not being too smart between the ears, when I decided to sell seeds I went to the AG office to find out what I needed to do.  They helped me create labels that comply with the laws here in KY.  I added the pictures of the peppers and comparison to something the average person knows: jalapeno.  Its a gateway pepper you know.

Could it be that by lumping me in with Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe, you are actually complimenting my website?  You know, the whole package not just the packaging?  If so thank you, but not just for the compliment but for letting me know I have gone way to damn far in the look professional area.

Seriously guy, this here business is just me and two kids (one 8 and one 10).  Wife works fulltime elsewhere.  I am all gimped up, fall on my face a lot.  We are soooooo not Pepper Joe or Puckerbutt.  Hell, look at our seed selection.  It is tiny right now because we done sold out of many variety.  We grow just about everything we sell, so when they are gone for the season they are gone.

Anyway, seriously guy, at this point in my life this is all I have got to be proud of.  So much was taken away from me in a fairly horrific accident almost a decade ago.  I am expanding online, meeting some great people.  Hell, spent last night drunk in the chat room here.  Please be my friend and not think of me as an invader.  Like you and everyone else, I am just trying to find my way.


 

hottoddy said:

Lots of factors: quantity, quality, ISO or OP

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That would be an interesting point, knowing if the seeds you're purchasing come from open pollinated or isolated pods, and even the isolation method.
 
Maybe we could have some answers since we have a lot of vendors on this Forum, or we could open a thread about this.

ISO and OP is just overrated these days. People sometime take OP seeds and than isolate them. Does that give you closed pollinated seeds? No. You have no freaking clue what the bees in the other field did the season before. There are not many growers that grow true CP seeds and can tell what the past few generations have been. The truth is that many hobby sellers (no pun intended) that grew to a business buy their seeds from quality sources and then "isolate" them. Imho the only legit closed pollinated seeds are the ones of purpose bred crosses which where deliberately isolated generation after generation.
 
Than there is the difference between OP and OP. A plant in a mixed field with all kinds of peppers in a full scale orgy with bumblebees, honey bees, humming birds etc are OP. But.. if you have 10 different varieties with 50+ plants per variety. Is that OP? Yep. In situation 1 the risk of a new cross is significant where the seeds from situation are highly likely to grow true.
 
So there's nothing wrong with OP as long as you know where it's from. I'm quite confident that you can get good seeds that grow true in the vast majority of times sowed if you purchase from a well known seller. I had varieties that didn't grow true from larger sellers like Fatalii, Semillas but that's a one off (I planted literally hundreds of varieties from them over the last couple of years). Does it make them a bad seller? Nah.
 
BUT we have some other sellers here (I don't need to disclose their names.. the vendor vault and pepper ID is filled with complaints) that screw up frequently.
 
So about the price.. OP or CP is not the issue. Labour cost? Nope. Value? YEP.
 
How much is a seed packet worth? It's up to each one of you. I have rare wilds that went for 8 euro per 10 seeds. Is that expensive? No... But would I pay 8 euro for 10 jalapeño seeds? Most definitely not. It's all about the use of the product. If you want the latest superhot, the rarest wild or the prettiest pod you'll just have to reach down your pocket and slap some cash on the table OR get them from some friendly growers. There's nothing wrong with earning money from people that are willing to pay. For all I care they can make the new superhot $10K per seed. IF they have the sales power to get them sold for that money who am I to blame them for overpricing? But if someone agrees with the price, it should sure as hell be the product that they intended to buy and not a simple jalapeño.
 
Keep in mind, there are people that pay 10+ million bucks for a completely white painting.. Value is based on human emotion. To me 1.50 to 2.00 per 10 seeds is an acceptable price. But I'd spend more for exclusive varieties.

 

In support of Pfeffer's view:
 
Video of someone who grows Carolina Reaper seeds for Puckerbutt.  Puckerbutt provided him with Carolina Reaper seeds, he grows Carolina Reaper for Puckerbutt ONLY.  All the peppers he grows are sold back to Puckerbutt.   Notice how they are grown.  Not in a green house.  Not isolated in any way.  In fact, non-reaper plants growing along side reapers, market with flags, not removed because the pollin has already spread by the time the pods have formed.
So, when you purchase Carolina Reaper seeds from the original cultivator, from the company that came up with the thing, what you are buying is open pollinated seeds. 

That said, here is the the other side of the story.  First year homesteading, I grew cantaloupe next to cucumbers and produced cucaloupe.  On the outside they looked like cantaloupe.  On the inside they looked like cucumbers.  But let me tell you, despite the appeal of a sandwich size cucumber slice, they were horrible, bitter, and yuck.  It is not just the seeds that cross polination can screw up, it is the fruit itself.

This is the second edition of a book that I have as a first edition.  It was my introduction to seed saving, very easy ideas, isolation without entire green houses.  Simple ideas like bagging flowers. 

http://www.amazon.com/Seed-Growing-Techniques-Vegetable-Gardeners/dp/1882424581/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1419715034&sr=8-1&keywords=seed+saving

Thing is, there are two type of growers.  Some folk buy seeds, grow, and then repeat the next season.  Nothing wrong with that.  Then there are seed savers.  Business or not, these are the folk trying to improve the line as they go.  Saving only the best, trying to prevent cross polination, and harvesting seeds from the best examples of the fruit.  That's what has kept many of the heirloom varieties alive and well.

With seed savers and traders, it is a loved hobbey egged on by the idea of being self sufficient, not needing Walmart.  But it is also about improving the line year after year.  Your seeds become yours, your special dna.  Its not the same as creating a new cultivar, but almost as rewarding if that is your thing.  You look at your garden and say, ye baby I did that.

Example: Stars and Moons watermelon.  Mine are the frigging brightest because when I first started growing them, the markings on them was what made my baby girl go ooohhh and ahhhh, so year after year I saved the seeds from the melons with the brightest markings.

ajdrew said:

Hawaiianero - Your post makes me awfully confused.  Also sad and a bit tearful.  You compared me to Judy.  She ranges $2.00 - $6.00 per pack of 20.  I range from $3.00 - $5.00 per pack of 20.  Not sure if she charges for shipping, but I do not.  So I am thinking we are comperable in price.  To say I perpetuate the higher prices is kind of misleading.

And this talk of fancy packaging?  I have ordered from both Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe. There is nothing fancy about their packaging.  From what I remember, seeds in small zipper lock, zipper lock in paper sleeve, name of seeds on the paper sleeve.  So I kind of feel you are trashing the effort I put into labeling.  Guy, most of that is what the state of Kentucky insists on.

Lot Number
Species
Variety
Season packed for
Statement of Origin

Not being too smart between the ears, when I decided to sell seeds I went to the AG office to find out what I needed to do.  They helped me create labels that comply with the laws here in KY.  I added the pictures of the peppers and comparison to something the average person knows: jalapeno.  Its a gateway pepper you know.

Could it be that by lumping me in with Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe, you are actually complimenting my website?  You know, the whole package not just the packaging?  If so thank you, but not just for the compliment but for letting me know I have gone way to damn far in the look professional area.

Seriously guy, this here business is just me and two kids (one 8 and one 10).  Wife works fulltime elsewhere.  I am all gimped up, fall on my face a lot.  We are soooooo not Pepper Joe or Puckerbutt.  Hell, look at our seed selection.  It is tiny right now because we done sold out of many variety.  We grow just about everything we sell, so when they are gone for the season they are gone.

Anyway, seriously guy, at this point in my life this is all I have got to be proud of.  So much was taken away from me in a fairly horrific accident almost a decade ago.  I am expanding online, meeting some great people.  Hell, spent last night drunk in the chat room here.  Please be my friend and not think of me as an invader.  Like you and everyone else, I am just trying to find my way.


 

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First of all ajdrew, I apologize for the way I came across initially. I reread it after original posting and felt I needed to add the edited part. My intent was not to insult but it seems I came across as that anyways. If you are into it for profit then obviously you have to invest a sizeable amount of time and money in making your product more appealing than the competition and part of that appeal is to target the novelty of the superhots in that they are much more than just hot peppers.
 
My comparison between you and the other guys was unfair to you since you are still in the early stages and need to establish your brand a bit more. I wish you nothing but the greatest success in doing so. One of the great things about joining this forum for you is that you can get input from people all around the world and hear about success stories and horror stories to help you navigate around so much of the b.s. that is out there.
 
Again, best of luck to you and here's to hoping for an awesome year next year for you and all the other vendors here on THP

Hawaiianero, thank you.  I should feel complimented but any hint that I am the man really bothers me.  I hate the idea that someone wil think of me as Walmart.  Here is a photo of my entire crew.

http://peppersbymail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/265011_209444382425740_3362967_n.jpg

A couple points for you ajd - ones I hope don't come across as dickish cause that isn't at all how I want them to:  
 
Pepper Joe and Puckerbutt have been in the game for a long time and have built the reputations (and product catalog) necessary to justify selling ten seeds for $8.  Patterning yourself after them is not a bad business idea - they are very successful after all.  If you're selling any variety of pepper and it does not grow true then you will have unhappy customers though.  Reverting to a position where 'isolated ain't all it's cracked up to be' and/or 'open pollinated works for these other guys' is not a place I'd want to go to when dealing with said unhappy customers.  Offer a good product, describe it accurately, follow it up with great customer service and you'll be fine.  
 
Also consider if this is something you really want to get into and if you have the tolerance to do it.  Thus far you've been making some pepper sauces and related products and having some success - maybe growing more peppers and expanding that product line might be best.  Of all the advice you'll find out there for small business owners I'd guess more than half sucks or doesn't apply.  But one thing I know WILL - you gotta have thick skin to deal with people on the internet.  The normal filters that exist during face to face transactions and personal service rarely work online.  People will screw things up and flame you for the problem, they'll expect you to be waiting by the computer the very minute they have a need and get pissed when you take a (whole entire) day to get back to them, etc etc etc.  <-- That aspect can be a real headache, so if you're going to take offense to some internet jibber jabber on a forum you might want to focus on other more personal interactions.
 
An area where I think there is a lot of room for growth would be landrace varieties - of everything.  Recently I've begun trying to find and expand my grow to include landrace varieties of 'hatch' type peppers from the american southwest and from mexico.  Here's a link that can tell you more.  I did this very thing by ordering the Allepo and Urfa Bieber peppers from Ford's for last year's grow because it's important to me that we not lose those genetics.  This year I've done it again with Midwest Chile heads as I grow more focused on the hatch type peppers.  Might be an avenue for you to explore as well.
 
Best of luck!  I like how you think and the posts you've put up around here thus far.   

You should do some fact checking. First of all the field in the video is ALL Carolina Reaper so where you come up with that they are grown beside other things is beyond me. If you actually WATCH the video you'll see what the flags are for and why they are there. There was a purpose for the video. You have to grow peppers in greenhouses? Hmm..you should do some research on the "big boys".  All my peppers are sold back to puckerbutt? I'm glad to see once again you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Ed is one of MANY customers we sell produce to. 
2nd point, open pollinated and isolation are two completely different things. IF you would like educated in this let me know. But for example...if you plant 100 like peppers in the middle of the desert are they OP? YES. Are they isolated? YES. We sell produce that may be crossed, who cares? It is produce. Seed collection is another matter. If you would like a list of thousands of customers of ours I would like for you to contact each and every one of them and ask them what company they have bought from that sold them the highest quality and the PUREST seed they have got. I gaurantee all of them will say us. Be real careful about trashing a company you have neither bought from nor obviously know shit about.
And you probably already know this since you seem to know everything about my business and eds business but out of the thousands upon thousands of pounds of peppers we send him, including reapers, do you know how many are used by him for seeds? ZERO

As far as the Urfa Biber, ANYONE who has it in the United states got them from me. Do some research and you'll find out I'm the one that brought them to the states along with several other varieties. John is a great friend of mine and we have traded several rare seeds like the Urfa. But as mentioned, I am the ONLY person in the United States that has the original seed stock from the Urfa. Johns seeds, Jims seeds, Ed seeds (urfa) ALL came from me.
 

ajdrew said:

In support of Pfeffer's view:
 
Video of someone who grows Carolina Reaper seeds for Puckerbutt.  Puckerbutt provided him with Carolina Reaper seeds, he grows Carolina Reaper for Puckerbutt ONLY.  All the peppers he grows are sold back to Puckerbutt.   Notice how they are grown.  Not in a green house.  Not isolated in any way.  In fact, non-reaper plants growing along side reapers, market with flags, not removed because the pollin has already spread by the time the pods have formed.


So, when you purchase Carolina Reaper seeds from the original cultivator, from the company that came up with the thing, what you are buying is open pollinated seeds. 

That said, here is the the other side of the story.  First year homesteading, I grew cantaloupe next to cucumbers and produced cucaloupe.  On the outside they looked like cantaloupe.  On the inside they looked like cucumbers.  But let me tell you, despite the appeal of a sandwich size cucumber slice, they were horrible, bitter, and yuck.  It is not just the seeds that cross polination can screw up, it is the fruit itself.

This is the second edition of a book that I have as a first edition.  It was my introduction to seed saving, very easy ideas, isolation without entire green houses.  Simple ideas like bagging flowers. 

http://www.amazon.com/Seed-Growing-Techniques-Vegetable-Gardeners/dp/1882424581/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1419715034&sr=8-1&keywords=seed+saving

Thing is, there are two type of growers.  Some folk buy seeds, grow, and then repeat the next season.  Nothing wrong with that.  Then there are seed savers.  Business or not, these are the folk trying to improve the line as they go.  Saving only the best, trying to prevent cross polination, and harvesting seeds from the best examples of the fruit.  That's what has kept many of the heirloom varieties alive and well.

With seed savers and traders, it is a loved hobbey egged on by the idea of being self sufficient, not needing Walmart.  But it is also about improving the line year after year.  Your seeds become yours, your special dna.  Its not the same as creating a new cultivar, but almost as rewarding if that is your thing.  You look at your garden and say, ye baby I did that.

Example: Stars and Moons watermelon.  Mine are the frigging brightest because when I first started growing them, the markings on them was what made my baby girl go ooohhh and ahhhh, so year after year I saved the seeds from the melons with the brightest markings.

Click to expand...

SmokenFire, I think maybe you are confusing what i said with what Pfeffer said.  I said I agree with Pfeffer and showed that large companies go the open pollination route.  Then I expanded on what Pfeffer said and linked what I consider the seed saver's bible which is all about isolation (of a sorts) for keeping dna true.  Was trying to demonstrate that small time seed savers / homesteaders can go the isolation route without having a green house for every variety.  The book rocks, opened my eyes big time.

On modeling ourselves after Puckerbutt or Pepper Joe, very good advice for others.  Reproducing what works is a good way to go.  Not good advise for me.  I am more fo the do somethign you love and success will follow sort of guy.  Puckerbutt and Pepper Joe are big enought that they have employees, do buy wholesale / sell retail, copack hot sauses and so on.  Nothing wrong with that at all, respect the hell out of folk who can do it.  I would fall on my face, no organizational skills what so ever, even worse with people skills.

My thing is growing produce.  The other stuff (seeds, sauces, grow kits) are just sidelines to fill seasonal gaps.

Now that I am not mobile, let me go into a bit more detail:
 
To answer the original question:
NO those prices are not out of control. Puckerbutt has a lot of overhead to cover.
 
As far as Judy and Peter yes they are both super great and have great prices on some fine products.
 
Now lets talk Open Pollinated (OP) and isolation and all those fancy terms.
It drives me nuts when people use these two terms hand in hand like it is one or the other. That notion is absolutely FALSE and anyone who tells you differently has no clue what they are talking about. 
 
Isolation: All this means is that the person is using a means to isolate the flowers of plants (peppers or otherwise) from crossing with other flowers of plants of a different species. There are many methods to accomplish this (and none of them are 100%). You can use greenhouses, netting, distance, etc etc. That is ALL isolation means. Period. Ever heard of someone being stuck in "isolation" in prison? Same thing.
 
Open Pollinated: Let me fill you in on a secret. Unless you are using an artificial/manual means to pollinate the flowers yourself, ALL plants are "open pollinated". That term is a fancy way of saying you are letting nature do its thing. In terms of peppers specifically, if you put 1000 plants of the same type in a greenhouse and just let them do their thing, they are isolated and they are also  OPEN POLLINATED whether they pollinate themselves (asexual), by bees/bugs, by wind or by any other un-attended means. How do you think peppers in the wild produce? Unless YOU physically go pollinate each and every flower by hand, they are Open Pollinated. Period.
 
Open Pollinated vs Isolation: As mentioned I don't know why people say it's this or it's that. They have nothing to do with one another. You can be isolated and still be OP and you can be OP and still be isolated. It is NOT one or the other. 
 
 
Are open pollinated isolated plants going to produce pods with seeds that grow true...YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES...AND yes
 
End of rant

mmcdermot1 said: "Be real careful about trashing a company you have neither bought from nor obviously know shit about."

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  I have trashed nobody.  I just agreed with Pfeffer that open pollination works fine for large scale growers and pointed to a book to help smaller growers.  For this you are not only flat out mean, but you threaten me?  I better be careful?  What did I do to you?  Seriously, you really hurt my feelings.  I have been nothign but nice in here, trashing nobody.  And the first time you talk to me you threaten me?  Why would you hurt me that way?  What did I do to you?

mmcderrmot1 said: "You should do some fact checking. First of all the field in the video is ALL Carolina Reaper so where you come up with that they are grown beside other things is beyond me."

Because the speaker in the video pointed out the plants that did not yield Carolina Reaper pods.  Either those plants are not themselves Carolina Reapers or there is a cross polinator near bye.  Its how plant sex works.  Why would that make you so angry at me?  Large scale growers who OP discard the pods that did not turn out true.  Works fine because they keep their fields apart.  All I did was repeat what the man in the video said.  Why are you threatening me for that?  Why are you being so very mean to me?

mmcderrmot1 asked: "You have to grow peppers in greenhouses?"

Why are you lying about what I said?  I just recomended a book on seed saving for people who do not have large fields they can dedicate to single crops like the man in the video.  Why are you being so mean, even lying about what I said and threatening me?
 
mmcdermot1 asked: "All my peppers are sold back to puckerbutt?"

Again, why are you lying about what I said?  The man in the video said all those plants were going back to Puckerbutt Pepper company.  That is what I said, what the man in the video said.  I didn't say anything about you.  Why are you lying and attackign me?  Are you the man in the video?  If so, then all I said was what you said.  That those pepeprs were all going to Puckerbutt and that you had no vested interest in how they turned out.

mmcdermot1 said: "As far as the Urfa Biber..."

I am glad you are the one who brougth them to the states.  More variety for everyone.  But I did not say anything about Urfra Biber or you, or saying you did not.  Please stop lying about me.  Why are you doing this?

mmcdermot1 said: "And you probably already know this since you seem to know everything about my business and eds business..."

Again with the lies.  I did not say I knew anythign of your business.  I do not know you.  I repeated what the man in the video said. If that is you, congratulations on a mighty fine business.  I didn't say anything bad about it or you.

On Puckerbutt, I didn't say anything negative about them either.  In another forum, I said I couldn't be them because they have employees, do the buy sell thing, have contracts, and do copacking.  I have brain damage, I can not manage those things.  It is a compliment to say someone else can do things I can not.

I found this forum after my last hospital stay.  I am just about couch bound because of foot surgery.  Met lots of really nice and helpful people.  Thought great things about the place.  But now I have someone threatening me, spreading lies about me, and being so very mean I can not sum up.

I am looking to talk to the nice people and I do not talk bad about people.  Not one word.  I said nice things about you not evening knowing who you are, that open pollination works just fine like Pfeffer said.  I just recommended a book for people not blessed with the volume of land you have, hobby people like me.

You are a big mean bad person.  Please leave me alone.  I am happy with the nice people here.