• Do you need help identifying a 🌶?
    Is your plant suffering from an unknown issue? 🤧
    Then ask in Identification and Diagnosis.

organic Another take on Organic Fertilizers

Hi Freinds,

Just something i found on the internet. Does it or does it not have merrit. Read for yourself, if anything I found it to be an interesting take. If its indeed factual, then the idea of using organics as a base while supplimenting with chem ferts does eliviate my fears of chem ferts damaging my hard work.

The Organic Farming Myths

by
R.I. Throckmorton, Dean
Kansas State College

In recent years there has grown up in this country a cult of misguided people who call themselves "organic farmers" and who would - if they could - destroy the chemical fertilizer industry on which so much of our agriculture depends.

These so-called organic farmers preach a strange, two-pronged doctrine compounded mainly of pure superstition and myth, with just enough half-truth, pseudo science and emotion thrown in to make their statements sound plausible to the uninformed.

One prong of their doctrine is a ruthless attack on chemical fertilizers, based on the preposterous supposition that such commercial plant foods "poison" the soil, destroy beneficial soil organisms such as earthworms, make crops more susceptible to attacks by insects and diseases, encourage weeds, and damage the health of livestock and humans who eat the crops so fertilized. It has been darkly hinted by the apostles of this organic farming creed that such things as decayed teeth, cancer, apoplexy and cirrhosis of the liver trace back to farmers' use of chemicals.

The positive side of their ridiculous dogma is a flat claim that organic matter alone is the answer to better crops and improved nutrition. All you have to do to grow perfect crops, insist these faddists, is to follow certain rituals involving composts and otherwise using organic matter in the soil. Such "organically farmed" crops are supposed to yield more, to be free of insects and diseases, and to have wonderful health-giving qualities for the animals or humans who consume them. If this were true, it would be impossible for us to produce our food requirements, because all of the manure, leaves, twigs grass clippings and crop residues available would fall far short of meeting the need.

In other words, these men who have appropriated use of the word organic are saying that all soil scientists are wrong and that they are right. They are, in effect, saying that farmers are wrong in using almost 20 million tons of commercial fertilizers a year. They are asking that painstaking research results of many generations be cast aside. These cultists apparently believe that by a play on words such as "natural", "chemical" and "organic", they have the key to an immortal truth. Strange as it may seem, those who attack the use of fertilizers have little or no reason to use them, as they usually aren't making their living by farming. Many of them are folks who garden or farm for recreation.

Now, superstitions about soils and fads in nutrition aren't new. They come and go. At first, when questions began coming to me about this one, I wasn't disturbed. But as they persisted and the antifertilizer crusade mounted, I began to fear that such misinformation could damage the status of important agricultural research. One uninformed writer said in a letter that the experiment stations were so heavily subsidized by the fertilizer industry that research workers were not free to tell the truth. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and such statements should not go unchallenged.

What is behind the broad pro and con claims of the organic farmer ? The answer is simple and provable: Bunk.

Let's clear up one point now. This cult has sought to appropriate a good word "organic", and has twisted its meaning to cover a whole crazy doctrine. The facts are that organic matter in its true sense is an important component of the soil - but soil fertility and the kind of crops you grow on a soil are not determined by humus alone. Soil fertility is determined by the amount of active organic matter, the amount of available mineral nutrients, the activities of soil organisms, chemical activities in the soil solution and the physical condition of the soil.

Ever since we have had soil scientists, they have recognized the values of organic matter. The loss of soil humus through cultivation has long been a matter of concern. So the faddists have nothing new to offer on that score. Organic matter is often called "the life of the soil" because it supplies most of the food needs of the soil organisms which aid in changing nonavailable plant food materials into forms-that are available to the plants, and contains small quantities of practically all plant nutrients. It also is a soil conditioner, bringing about beneficial chemical and physical changes. It has a tremendous influence on the tilth of the soil, and on ability of soil to absorb and retain water.

The chemical role of organic matter is particularly important, as it is the storehouse for the reserve nitrogen supply. When soil nitrogen is not combined with organic matter it can be lost rapidly by leaching. Considerable phosphorus and small quantities of practically all other mineral elements in the soil are made available via the organic matter.

The antichemical-fertilizer doctrine makes a great point of the fact that plant food in organic matter is in "natural" form, while in chemical fertilizer it is "unnatural" and thus supposedly is harmful, if not downright poisonous. The logic of this escapes me. Science completely disproved the conclusion. The facts are that any plant foods, whether from organic matter, or from a bag of commercial fertilizer, necessarily came from Nature in the first place. Why is one more "natural" than another ? A Plant takes in a given nutrient in the same chemical form whether it came from organic matter, or from a bag of commercial fertilizer. The facts are that practically all plant-food elements carried by organic matter are not used in their organic form; they are changed by microorganisms to the simple chemical forms which the plants can use - the same form in which these elements become available to plants when applied as chemical fertilizers. For example, it is foolish to say that nitrogen in commercial fertilizer is "poisonous" while nitrogen from organic matter is beneficial. The basic nitrogen is the same in either case.

Although soil organic matter is important, it falls short of solving all soil-fertility needs. If we depended on it alone, our high yields would be out of the question. For example, muck soils contain as much as 20 to 50 per cent organic matter. According to the faddists" theories, you could do little to improve such soils. But they actually need fertilizer for efficient production. J. F. Davis, Michigan State College researcher, found in tests that the yield of wheat on unfertilized muck soils was 5.7 bushels an acre, while the yield on plots receiving the chemical phosphorus and potash was 29.2 bushels per acre. The yield of potatoes was increased from 97 bushels an acre with no treatment, to 697 with commercial fertilizer carrying phosphorus and potash. Cabbage yields were boosted by the same means from 1/2 ton to 27 tons.

Since soil and plant research began, scientists have been investigating the kinds of foods plants need and the forms in which they use them. It is known that at least 14 elements are vital to plant growth. Some such as carbon, hydrogen and oxygen are taken from the air by the plant's chemistry. The plant gets from the soil solution such others as nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, manganese, copper, zinc, sulphur, iron and boron. Nature, the primary source of them all, hasn't distributed these plant food through all soils in the amounts or mixtures required to get maximum production. Heavy cropping may take so much out of certain soils that deficiencies of some elements occur. It should be evident that the supply of these elements in a soil cannot be increased by raising crops and turning them under. The plant cannot manufacture them. Thus, when a soil is deficient, the most practical remedy is to apply the right kind of fertilizer.

Nitrogen, of course, is somewhat different. Certain organisms associated with legumes, such as alfalfa and clover, can extract this element from the air. When these legumes are grown and plowed under, the nitrogen in the soil may be increased. However, on most soils in the eastern half of the U.S. it is necessary to supply chemical plant foods, such as lime, phosphorus and potassium and to inoculate the seed, in order to produce successfully these nitrogen-fixing crops. It is an interesting side light that the nitrogen returned to the soil in this "natural" form by legumes, comes from the air; so does the nitrogen in certain kinds of chemical fertilizers. Learning to extract nitrogen from the air has given us unlimited potential supplies of the vital plant food.

Fertilizers produced chemically are not poisons and, therefore cannot poison the soil or the plant's produce. There is no evidence that mineral fertilizers, when applied at recommended rates, are injurious to soils, or that crops produced by the use of such materials are harmful to man or beast. On the contrary, there is much scientific proof that the use of commercial fertilizers on deficient soils will increase the crops' nutritive value.

Protein, important in building living tissue, is increased in corn, for example, by nitrogen fertilizers. Ralph W. Cummings a director of research at North Carolina State College, recently said "The protein content of corn grain grown with fertilizers containing synthetic nitrogen salts, has shown an increase over the unfertilized under practically all conditions." In a large number of experiments, the protein content was increased approximately 3 per cent, that is, where the unfertilized corn had only 5.7 per cent protein, the fertilized averaged l0.4 per cent protein. "It is considered that such higher-protein corn is superior feed-stuff," Cummings reported.

There is no evidence whatever to indicate that chemically fertilized plants are less nutritious than non-fertilized. Director W. M. Fifield of the Florida Experiment Station has said: "Not a single instance has been called to our attention where the use of chemicals in production or protection of our state's crops or livestock has resulted in harmful effects on humans who have consumed them."

If commercial fertilizers did poison the soil, one would expect their continued use to result in a material reduction in crop yields. This, however, has decidedly never been the case. These fertilizers have pointed the way to steadily increased yields of higher quality, more nutritious crops. At the Rothamsted Experiment Station, Harpenden, England, is an experiment with wheat which now has been running more than 100 years. One plot has received nothing but manure, applied at the rate of 14 tons per acre annually. Another has received nothing but chemical fertilizer. Despite the exceptionally heavy manure treatment, the average yield of the manures plot and the chemically fertilized plot has been about the same according to the last records available.

And while organic matter is particularly important in the soil in everyday farming, it has been proved that crops can be grown without soil, without any organic matter whatever, simply by supplying the plants with solutions containing the necessary nutrients in chemical form. In many tests various crops have been grown in pure glass sand - the sand providing only mechanical anchorage for the plant - by feeding solutions which contain the needed elements. This process is beyond the experimental stage. It has been applied to some extent commercially, and our military services have made use of this knowledge of the chemical requirements of plants to grow fresh vegetables for troops in areas where standard methods of farming are not feasible.

The claim of the antifertilizer cult that insects and diseases tend to ignore crops grown their "natural" way, and concentrate on chemically fertilized crops, I leave to your imagination. No reputable scientist has yet reported any such observation. But H.E. Myers, head, department of agronomy, Kansas State College, observed this spring on an experimental field in Southern Kansas that green bugs were exceedingly numerous on non-fertilized wheat, while only a few were present on adjoining wheat receiving nitrogen and phosphorus as chemical fertilizers.

The indictment that mineral fertilizers destroy earthworms and beneficial soil bacteria is without foundation. At the Rothamsted Experimental Station, it has been found that earthworms are just as numerous in the soil of the fertilized plots as in the unfertilized - but those in the fertilized area are larger and fatter. Many experiments in this country show that application of superphosphate to soils at rates commonly recommended will increase the population of beneficial soil bacteria. The use of mineral fertilizer will, in general, result in an increase of the organic matter of the soil and thus promote bacteria and earthworms. Organic matter is, of course, a by-product of plant growth; one of the quickest ways to increase it in a soil is to use chemical fertilizer to grow luxuriant green manure crops that will be turned back in the soil, or heavy crops that will leave a large residue of organic material. Without the use of chemical fertilizer it is impossible on some soils to grow legumes that are so essential to good soil management in humid sections. On the gray silt loam soils of South-eastern Kansas, farmers could not grow alfalfa successfully, even though they used large quantities of manure. Fertility experiments on these soils showed that over a 24-year period, the average annual yield of alfalfa on untreated land was only .59, of a ton per acre, while the addition of lime and superphosphate enabled the land to produce an average yield of 2.29, tons. On this land the lime and superphosphate treatment increased the average yield of wheat from 14.6 bushels per acre to 26.3 bushels. Although the purely organic manure was beneficial on these soils, manure alone could not solve the problem of a definite lack of lime and phosphorus.

To sum it up, there is nothing to substantiate the claims of the organic-farming cult. Mineral fertilizers, lime and organic matter all are essential in a sound fertility program. Chemical fertilizers stand between us and hunger.
 
I don't have time to read the entire article right this second, but I like to think the best farmer always gives his crops what they need. I do start with compost in the soil and I do foilar feed them worm tea, but I also add ferts and things like calcium, magnesium, and other non organic items as needed.

To say you don't need organic additives is just as bad as saying you should never use chemical additives either. Again give the plant what it needs regardless of where it came from or how it was derived.

I love this part of the article though

"But they actually need fertilizer for efficient production. J. F. Davis, Michigan State College researcher, found in tests that the yield of wheat on unfertilized muck soils was 5.7 bushels an acre, while the yield on plots receiving the chemical phosphorus and potash was 29.2 bushels per acre. The yield of potatoes was increased from 97 bushels an acre with no treatment, to 697 with commercial fertilizer carrying phosphorus and potash. Cabbage yields were boosted by the same means from 1/2 ton to 27 tons."

I don't think anyone would argue that an additional 6 1/2 tons more food is a bad thing!!
 
I'am a naturalist by heart and have been labeled organic (They use to call us hippies too) and read the first half and agree my kind has twisted the wrong way (all cultures have a radical part). But alot of us also have stayed true. Fish has been used as fert by man FOREVER. Fresh grass and dried leaves has made compost by man FOREVER. The only thing that has changed in my family was in the 50"s MGro came out and my dad started using that instead of fish all the while still using compost. For me thats all I will ever need. I don't knock the new way cause it does produce more (at one time M Gro was the new thing). I perfer to call myself a old farmer now-somewhere inbetween organic and chem and if my life or business depended on me getting the most out of a garden then I would have to consider full chem fert just for lower cost and produce more. I have gardens now instead of a farm and production is not a issue. Saying one plant is healther because it has 5 pounds more than another is simply stupid. Saying one plant is healther because it has been raised organic is just as stupid. I'm sorry I'm getting on a soap box but I see no reason to look down on someone for using chem fert any more than giving me a fowl eye for being almost natural.:)
 
Although I will agree that some folks have gone a little overboard with the 'green' labeling, there is so much physical proof out there of the effects of chemical fertilizers causing environmental damage. Look at the source of your snippet, Dean of Ag. Sci. at Kansas State. Hmmmm. . . I wonder what industry is providing HUGE grants to his institution for intensive agriculture.

Check these out:
Eutrophication article (peer reviewed)
Article #2

I'm not trying to call you out and like I said, I'm agreeing with you to an extent. I choose to use organic amendments to my garden just for the sake of doing it. I don't think chemical fertilizers are evil. . . if used properly and with caution. The problem I have is with the unsustainable high intensity farming practices that our society has fallen into due to overuse of our resources. I'm not here to preach, just to point out a couple facts.

Keep in mind who you are talking to. I'm a consulting forester. A guy that gets paid to instruct loggers on which trees to kill. I pride myself on the fact that my timber sales promote ecological sustainability through proper management. There are so many people in my industry that just follow the "cut the best, leave the rest" philosophy and are ruining the forests here in Pennsylvania. The same concepts can be applied here...
 
Meh, my main bit of info I wanted to get, was the whole "does chem ferts kill microbiology" (as ive been blatently told by a few organic fert company reps)or don't they. Seems from what Ive gathered that there is no real evidence to support the theory that they do. And the fact that they have tested chem fertilized farms and found healthy worm and bug activity in the soil is enough for me.

Like the others here tho - I'll still go organic as much as possible simply for the fact that it is slow releasing and easier to maintain in the long run. Not to mension that its a good form of recycling.
 
Although I will agree that some folks have gone a little overboard with the 'green' labeling, there is so much physical proof out there of the effects of chemical fertilizers causing environmental damage. Look at the source of your snippet, Dean of Ag. Sci. at Kansas State. Hmmmm. . . I wonder what industry is providing HUGE grants to his institution for intensive agriculture.

...


Keep in mind who you are talking to. I'm a consulting forester. A guy that gets paid to instruct loggers on which trees to kill. I pride myself on the fact that my timber sales promote ecological sustainability through proper management. There are so many people in my industry that just follow the "cut the best, leave the rest" philosophy and are ruining the forests here in Pennsylvania. The same concepts can be applied here...


+1.

I don't have the expertise to comment on a lot of the issues addressed in this article, but one thing I can say is: dude who wrote that sounded very angry. Big ups to Robby and Redtail for approaching the issue in a much calmer, less fanatical manner. And for not calling anyone a "cultist."
 
And the fact that they have tested chem fertilized farms and found healthy worm and bug activity in the soil is enough for me.


Worm and bug activity IS NOT microbial activity.....

Wow, that article makes my blood boil..... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Some say, "Whatever is best for the plant"..... However, the end result of a food producing plant is HUMAN CONSUMPTION.....

Find the tests on the differences in HUMAN CONSUMPTION of SYNTHETIC chemically grown crops and those of an ALL-ORGANIC crop.......

90% of AMERICANS eat McDonalds....... Does that make it right??? Hell no! EASY is the road taken by these CHEMICAL FARMERS. Not THE BEST WAY POSSIBLE!!



Anyone who believes ORGANIC gardeners are a part of some type of cult needs to re-think those thoughts.

I'm amazed by the thought process of this person or any other person with this attitude toward OUR FOOD SUPPLY...

Bayer Healthcare, Johnson and Johnson, and Bristol-Meyer's Squibb are some of the top PHARMACEUTICAL companies in the world...So why do they make COMMERCIAL FERTILIZER???? To keep plants as healthy as the humans taking their drugs????? What are the side-effects of those drugs????? And people believe these chemicals are BEST for the plant????
 
I hate to piss on the parade, but R.I. Throckmorton was Dean of Agriculture at Kansas State University... from 1947 to 1951 and has papers published as early as 1918.

Now either he is still rocking on, or this article (which appears a lot online) is actually quite old, and might not actually have a lot of current fact in it.

I'm always wary of information about currently evolving areas of science, that are old enough to get a letter from the Queen ;)
 
And ya know what I have more of a problem with a "Organic" product that was produced by stripping part of a jungle away without the benifit of someone like RedTail there to make sure it was done right. Making your own organic fert insures less of a footprint on this earth
 
Although I will agree that some folks have gone a little overboard with the 'green' labeling, there is so much physical proof out there of the effects of chemical fertilizers causing environmental damage. Look at the source of your snippet, Dean of Ag. Sci. at Kansas State. Hmmmm. . . I wonder what industry is providing HUGE grants to his institution for intensive agriculture.

Given the tone of the article, the fact it was probably funded by chemical-ag companies, and is likely to be 50+ years old, I think we can put it down as a historical document, not a scientific one.
 
From a science point of view, everything is chemical. The difference is, was it produced naturally, or artificially.

To the plant, there is nothing different between adding chunks of dead fish and plant-matter, and adding a bunch of chemicals that match the fish and plant matter. However, things start getting interesting when you are only adding chemicals that a particular crop needs, and allowing the rest to deplete. It gets scary when purely artificial chemicals are added that may or may not change the structure of plant and animal life that it comes in contact with.

Personally, I try to use natural or naturally sourced additives/pest-reducers. Takes a lot of worry and thought out of it, and means the soil will still be good to use in time to come.
 
I agree with "RedtailForster" completely!!

My wife and I grow with organics because we believe our harvest is just healthier for you.
 
Thanks for the props everyone. Keep in mind, this is just my opinion based on scientific evidence and personal experience. Like I said in my first post, I do not believe man-made chemicals are evil and I do not believe having an "organic" or "green" product stamp necessarily makes the product more healthy. I try to emulate what God / Mother Nature has taught us and roll with it. It's worked for this long...
 
With mt personal views aside, just to balance the points of view here I thought i'd post exerts from these websites. Some say (even on pro-organic websites) that there are little to no nutritional benifits with organic farmed foods over convensionaly farmed foods.

In one website, Melbourne Uni is quoted to refute it completely - Quote from Dr David Tribe:- (from http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/article/5766785/none/organic-revolution)

the University of Melbourne is adamant the organic industry is serving a feast of falsehoods.

Dr David Tribe said, "It's very hard to find convincing evidence that it does benefit health. It's for people who want to feel happy about what they're doing in terms of environmental responsibility. Good intentions about the environment are a big selling point."

What's obvious is that no-one can say for sure organic food is healthier. In fact, the main organic group in Britain was told to stop making that claim because it can't be scientifically proven.

In fact, chemicals found in pesticides and hormones such as deoxynivlenol in wheat, chaconine and solanine in potatoes or psoralen in celery, are all natural chemicals you can find in organic foods. One researcher claims in an average diet, we eat 10,000 times more natural carcinogens than synthetic ones. So why do we buy organic food at all and how can you tell if something really is organic?


A major selling point for organics is its sustainability. Yet, dissenter Dr David Tribe argues organic crops can only be fertilised with manure. He believes if we switch completely to organic farming, we'd need to cut down the rest of our forests to provide grazing land for cattle.

"If, as the organic people are pushing for, for the world food suppy to be turned over to organic farming and that is indeed their ambition, it will be an environmental disaster," said Dr Monk.

Also, organic farming generally uses twice the land, twice the water and produces lower yields.



http://www.organicfacts.net/organic-food/organic-food-basics/organic-food-faqs.html

Still - I personally like the fact that in my garden - I know whats going in the dirt, and I know that organic ferts are cheaper, longer lasting and my chlilli's are happy and there growth speaks for itself.
 
Ah, Today Tonight, the last bastion of unbiased research and reporting ;)
Actualy - you make a very good point there. I've seen them quote a Doctor on weight loss. The doctor was promoting a diet pill also endorsed by Kerry-ann Kennerly. I found out later that the Doc was a Doctor in some non medical related proffesion and was the owner of the company that produced and marketed this wonder pill.

Still - If this time this Uni Doc is the real deal, then it makes an interesting argument. I have read similar docs on the web stating similar things, then again - you can easily find confilcting data to oppose.

Like I said earlier tho - I just wanted to know if indeed it is safe to suppliment my organic garden with conventional ferts without the rist of killing my soil. The docs I found so far were in support of this. If there is real scientific research that says it does harm - then yes I would like to know.
 
"Also, organic farming generally uses twice the land, twice the water and produces lower yields".

I might produce lower yields but mine taste better than the mass produced chem fert produce.
 
Still - I personally like the fact that in my garden - I know whats going in the dirt, and I know that organic ferts are cheaper, longer lasting and my chlilli's are happy and there growth speaks for itself.

That's all I need to know. I don't even pretend to know much about ferts, but I know that I would rather consume food produced by natural things rather than chemicals. Last year I only used compost, aged manure and bone meal with better than expected results. I had heaps of pods without really knowing what I was doing.

That being said, my seedlings are in MG potting mix right now just because it's all I could find in February. By the time they produce pods a few months from now it should be out of their systems.

By the way, MG potting mix sucks! Moisture contol? I wouldn't mind being in charge of that. I gave everything a pretty good soak when I potted up and they were still soaked 4 days later. It took a box fan on high for 72 hours to dry them out to a reasonable level and I already have small fans on them 24/7.
 
Actualy - you make a very good point there. I've seen them quote a Doctor on weight loss. The doctor was promoting a diet pill also endorsed by Kerry-ann Kennerly. I found out later that the Doc was a Doctor in some non medical related proffesion and was the owner of the company that produced and marketed this wonder pill.

Still - If this time this Uni Doc is the real deal, then it makes an interesting argument. I have read similar docs on the web stating similar things, then again - you can easily find confilcting data to oppose.

In my experience, if Today Tonight are covering it, then someone is making money from it, either directly (as in the diet pills) of indirectly (an organisation attempting to discredit an opposing point of view, say, the organic growers)

Also, organic farming generally uses twice the land, twice the water and produces lower yields.[/i]

It is interesting that the above quote sits in the story, unattributed to any one of the Drs interviewed. If neither Dr made the comment, who came up with it? ;)
 
Back
Top