• Do you need help identifying a 🌶?
    Is your plant suffering from an unknown issue? 🤧
    Then ask in Identification and Diagnosis.

7 POT LAVA

CAPCOM

CAPCOM

I have a nagging question and its been bothering me for close to 3 years now.
If the 7 pot lava was created by Judy, and she didn't release them and from what I can tell not much info about how she created them. Where did all the lavas out there come from? What is the 7 pot lavas linage? and / or are the lavas out there being sold just capitalizing on the name?
 
I -think- I have an answer for you.  From what I have read and observed, Pepper Love / Judy has an incredible amount of dedication to her set of ethics and rules.  I say her set of ethics and rules because I have not observed them elsewhere.  I have been goofing with cross pollination and creating my own strains.  Asking lots of questions about naming conventions and when you should put your initials behind a name.  But with all the questions, I always find myself asking "What Would Judy Do" before listening to other people's advice. 

OK, so let me use her Brown Bhutlah as an example because I am more familiar with that because of a recent decision about naming convention.

From what I have read she crossed a bhut and a douglah, came up with a brown / chocolate colored bhutlah.  Before it was ready for release as a seed, probably as an F1, she sent some pods out to folk here at THP.  She called them Brown Bhutlah and was upfront about the pods being a fairly new cross.  I can not find the thread now, but that is why I say I think it was F1.  Guess what happened the next season.

Not going to say who, but someone had seed for "Chocolate Bhutlah PL".  Not joking.  Shortly after that, a couple seed sites had "Chocolate Bhutlah PL" for sale.  Here is the thread about the seed stock showing up under her name but not on her site.  just remember, the folk named in the link were not the first to sell Chocolate Bhutlah PL.

http://thehotpepper.com/topic/59834-chocolate-bhutlah-pl/
 
Key point is that these were not the first.  Chances are the second, third and so forth bought their initial seed stock from who ever was first.  Then grew and seed saved what they were told were Chocolate Bhutlah PL and resold.  Maybe some got into a seed train.  That is how I think Lava PL got out.

This is a horrible practice by seed folk because no two people will grow out the same way.  I suspect the Brown Bhutlah pods she once sold did not pan out so she dropped the line.  That or they have not finished the growing out process.  Likely same for Lava.
 
Now to confuse the matter even more and threw no fault of Pepper Lover, her site now offers a Chocolate Bhutlah which just from looking at it I can tell is not the same as the pods she once sold.  I know because that decision I mentioned was what to call what i purchased as Chocolate Bhutlah PL.  I decided to call them Brown Bhutlah with no initials.  Seems like the right thing to do.

However, you can see most folk's confusion.  At Pepper Lover's site, there is a Chocolate Bhutlah.  At other sites, there is a Chocolate Bhutlah PL.

http://pepperlover.com/pepper-seeds/heat-level/world-hottest/bhutlah-chocolate-detail
 
Hoping this has made some level of sense.  I am a bit loopy tonight and the topic is hard to answer without just saying seed folk are wildly unethical.  Its not that they mean to be.  Its just that there aren't established standards.  I really don't think it is a money thing because I can not imagine a huge amount of money in the latest hybrid.  Lets face it, outside of a very small group of dye hard fans, those initials dont mean a thing. 

BTW: Its not just her.  I think Big Black MaMa is another example.
 
 
CAPCOM said:
I have a nagging question and its been bothering me for close to 3 years now.
If the 7 pot lava was created by Judy, and she didn't release them and from what I can tell not much info about how she created them. Where did all the lavas out there come from? What is the 7 pot lavas linage? and / or are the lavas out there being sold just capitalizing on the name?
Click to expand...
Primo x Mourga i believe but iv'e never seen a plant grow tails.  All these supers people grow are not stable anyway, so who knows what they or us are growing in the first place.  Not many have good flavor besides yellows.  
 
jedisushi06 said:
All these supers people grow are not stable anyway, so who knows what they or us are growing in the first place.  Not many have good flavor besides yellows.  
Click to expand...
 
Great point and topic.  If I really pay attentions, I can get two generations a year.  Not enough light to do it all inside, but if I time it right I can use a combination of inside and outside.  So at a bare minimum, it would take me 4 or 5 years to go from cross to stable.  Even then, I am not all that sure 8 generations will do it.  But let's say I crossed something, got something cool, payed really close attention to get 8 generations in 4 or 5 years.... then what? 

Then I release the seed and a year later it is being sold by a dozen other folk.  Most of them made no effort to grow in isolation.  So now the thing I spent so much time refining the dna becomes polluted.  Now the thing that was stable gives the impression of not being stable at all.

I think a lot of what doesn't seem stable is really poor growing techniques on the part of seedmen.
 
 
Simple.... from people she thought she could trust. Reviewers,friends,whoever.

The last seed trade we did she seemed pretty frustrated with the situation,encouraged me not to trust anyone on either side of the pond,including personal friends we both share. Simple enough for me because I couldn't care less about superhots.

She sent me pods of the brown version and also one she labled "strain #3". It's been 4+ years but if I remember correctly the strain #3 had brutal heat. It wasn't painful,but the heat was intense with a short peak time.

Admittedly,I don't follow the arms race,but I think the Lava was lapped before it was officially released. As mentioned above,Judy missed out on money and glory by sticking to her morals. I will not knock her for that.

Also,the BBG7 opened up a ton of options,breathed some actual life into the drab superhot X superhot craze. It added aesthetics along with the heat. And it is probably the only pepper that rivals Pimenta de Neyde in terms of being whored out.
 
Pr0digal_son said:
Simple.... from people she thought she could trust. Reviewers,friends,whoever.

The last seed trade we did she seemed pretty frustrated with the situation,encouraged me not to trust anyone on either side of the pond,including personal friends we both share. Simple enough for me because I couldn't care less about superhots.
 
Click to expand...
 
From opinions expressed about her and what little I have read by her, she seems to be a very nice person.  I would hate what is obviously her passion (creating new strains) to be tainted by people who have taken advantage of her.  But I really do think a lot of harm can be done with no intent.
 
Judy is a really nice lady. She likes to spread peppers around, more than she cares about the money, even though she does sell seeds. Even her fresh peppers were very reasonable. This reminds me of Matt Arthur. He sends out new peppers and seeds to people and does it for the love of peppers, and doesn't think about the money. It is too bad that all this got out to other sellers before she wanted to sell them herself, but that seems to be the way things are these days.
She sent me some red Lavas a few years back, and I brought some for hot pepper night to try out. To me, they were about as hot as red brain strains, and didn't taste as good. I can't grow everything, so since I was already growing a superior pepper of the same basic kind, I didn't end up growing it.
I guess business is business, but the way many pepper people do business it makes you not to want to share products or information that others can use to make money. It is really a shame. Tom
 
Cycadjungle couple observations I want to share on what you said.  The first being that I don't think there is much money in creating new crosses.  I have been goofing with it because it is just plain fun.  Wife is constantly reminding me that I am a farmer, not a mad scientist so I have to stay focused on what pays the mortgage.  She is right.  So when you are doing something for the sheer joy of doing it, I can certainly see how it would be off putting that folk would goof up your namesake (Lava in this case) for an extra few sales.

Maybe I am missing something, but I honestly do not think there is all that much money to be made with seeds.  I think it is more of a fair income for a fair amount of work.  New strains are no doubt even less profitable.  You spend a minimum of 8 generations to get something stable, release it, and in a year dozens of other folk are selling the thing.  And what about that year?  You might have a default exclusive but how big is the market for the latest unique strain when there are so many.  As you pointed out, you can only grow so many new peppers a year.

I really think it is a labor of love.  I have been goofing around with cross pollination for a bit now.  I can not think of any other motivation that fun.  But again, maybe I am missing something cause other folk seem to think there is a fortune in seeds.
 
I agree with you in some respects, but I am seeing people break promises for hardly any money at all. Their integrity has been compromised for a very cheap price.
As far as money goes, yes, on average, most people don't sell huge amounts of seeds. But, it is all in your attitude (good or bad)and in your marketing. Just look what Ed did. The reaper was first distributed a year and a half before it somehow got the world record. They sold 120,000 seeds at a buck a piece in 3 months. To me $120,000 in one year for one type of seed isn't chump change. How many seeds do you think they have sold now after about 3-4 years? I know you keep up with this, look at how he manipulates the media with articles and interviews. He is not an elegant looking person. If he can do it just about anyone else could do it if they wanted to. I don't know if you have seen Troy's posts on Facebook, but he has small fields of seed producing plants. He has one for Primos and hinted that he had the same for his new Creepers. He said a few weeks ago, he was processing about 150 pounds of peppers a week for seed production, and separate powder production. That is a shit load of seeds that he is planning to sell. Sounds like he is gearing up to make some serious money too. I think if the pepper is unique enough, or the next hottest, there is a big market for this kind of thing. I have found that just from observation, about 1 out of 10 people like hot food. That's like 30 million people just in the U.S.alone. Then, out if those people, who wants to grow at least one plant for themselves? Even if it is 1 out of 100, that still makes 300,000 possible customers. There are piles of people who grow peppers that you never see in forums. All you need to do is get the word out and market the product and the sales can roll in. Even though many others can take your product and sell the same thing the next year, look what is happening with Ed. It has been years, and people like you have WAY better genetics on reapers than Ed sells to the public, but there are people on the Facebook forums all the time looking for reaper seeds, there are multiple people telling them to get them from the original source. So he is still selling piles of seeds.
 
My opinion on crosses is I care about making ones where it truly is obvious that the end result is a combination of the two parent varieties.  I am sick and tired of all the 'mystery' crosses never divulging heritage. I believe be straight forward with what was done and document it each year to truly show effort was made.  It takes a LOT of time to do the crossing.  I really enjoy it now, but the truth is there are many failures for every success.  Let's be real....hardly ANYONE is stabilizing to F8 in the seed selling world. lol.  Yes, that is ideal, but I see endless sellers putting out F2s like it's candy.  it's a whole different world now with peppers than it was ten years ago.  I rarely see anyone actually showing the pheno transitions/stability from F1 to F2 to F3 to.......   If not done, how can anyone assess how much 'effort' really was made?  That said, some things I see look so cool I'm happy to roll the dice to try them just in the hopes it'll turn out similar.  That's why they call it gambling. :)   There's always a luck factor involved. 
 
cycadjungle said:
Just look what Ed did. The reaper was first distributed a year and a half before it somehow got the world record. They sold 120,000 seeds at a buck a piece in 3 months. To me $120,000 in one year for one type of seed isn't chump change.
Click to expand...
 
Ye but that is wildly unusual.  I am sure the Red Savina guy made some money by creating a superior product and marketing it to industry.  But other than those two record holders, I am thinking new peppers that make money are few and far between.  That and I think Mr. Currie made much more licensing for hot sauce folk.  Oh and much help promoting from Pepper Joe.  That takes mad business skills.  Heck even getting all that press is a serious skill set.  Willing to bet if Pepper Joe and Ed Currie were to try to market just about anything they would be wildly successful.

Heck, Pepper Joe worked for Fashion Bug for years.
 
 
I don't think it is that hard to do if it is your mindset to do it. Yes, he is an unusual case, but that doesn't mean someone with strategy can't do it. I'm not saying I am special or anything, but I have a finance degree and took years of marketing classes as well. Some of these Facebook groups have 10-15k members. Of you start hyping your pepper a year or so before you plan to send it out and sick like your seeds, anyone could sell $100,000 in seeds, of the pepper is good enough. It can't be like something else though. Of you look up my name and the word "cycad"you will find pages of references. I want trying to sell anything, but I was still sought after for radio interviews all over the world and a subject on many newspaper and magazine articles, and I wasn't even trying. Someone who is looking for the attention, it isn't that hard to do. Nursery people do it all the time with a new plant. They wait until they have about 10-50k plants and then they got the market, knowing people will propagate them at once. (Given they don't patent the plant) Again I mention Troy. He is already taking up his Creeper and not releasing anything someone can propagate. Whether it is the new record host or not, he is going to sell piles of them. Even if he only sold 2 packs of seeds at $10 each to just the forum members of one forum the size of the growing forum, he could make $300k as soon as he could get them all out.
 
Well there you go.  It is the marketing.  Got to admit that Pepper Joe and Ed Currie kept the Carolina Reaper talk at the top of people's minds for some time.  So I am still going with the idea that its not common but will give you that I guess there are folk ( like you ) who have the skill set.  I just grow peppers.  Not I think I am damn smart about it, figuring how to keep going with growing challenges, expanding even, but it is a different skill set.
 
I may have those skills, but i will probably never use them for peppers. I'm making extra money on them, but I'm mainly doing it for fun. I have a gold mine of cycads sitting here that would provide an income for 20 generations. (Since most live from 500-2500 years) The peppers have been an escape for me, because there are all kinds of bad people breaking the law to get the plants they want, and I get tired of that.
Here is a recent example. The false article on the Dragon's Breath pepper went viral all over the world and was being sent around on asll kinds of food sites, pepper sites, etc. I had 30 people share the same article to me in case I hadn't seen it. If there is any basic truth to this pepper, people all over the world are wanting to give it a try. If they had the seeds ready, they could have sold numbers like we have been talking about in one week of hype.
 
Dragon's Breath confuses the hell out of me.  Folk now tend to think it was a scam, but to what end?  If there was a scam involved, where did the scammer make money?  I am so very lost on that one.  But yes, you are right that there are things like that and folk can make bank. 
 
Everyone has their opinions on a subject they don't have enough knowledge about. I think there is some truth to it all, but obviously not a pepper that will kill you to eat. A lot of haters on Facebook that just want to talk bad about people. I think they have a very hot pepper and they are looking to do something with. I think we will see more about it. They WERE already selling small plants for somewhere around $10-$20, but not enough to make serious money. With everyone just waiting for the next hottest thing, no matter what it might taste like, whoever does come out with it first will have some serious sales if they do it right.
 
I lost track of the soap opera at the point where I understood the person who have made the claims had not created the plant and the people who created the plant said none of what took place was their doing.  I do with them well.  If thatis how it went down, someone did them a serious bad deed to screw their rep this way.

Thing is you are right about people making money.  Willing to bet some smart cookie is going to be selling Dragon's Breath Cayenne on Ebay soon.
 
AJ Drew said:
Willing to bet some smart cookie is going to be selling Dragon's Breath Cayenne on Ebay soon.
Click to expand...
tenor.gif
 
What is the biggest shame of it all is, like the mythical pandoras box, once opened it is impossible to undo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top