A general discussion about species, but focusing on eximium and cardenasii

Nigel

Nigel

Having recently been lucky enough to try a Rocopica, I wanted to start a discussion about this kind of inter-species hybrid in general, but using the Rocopica as a model. 
 
For all you growers of wilds, please chip in with your experience and knowledge.
 
I guess to do that we have to look at the Rocopica specifically, first. The Rocopica is a cross between a Rocoto, C.pubescens, and an Ulupica. The pepper known as Ulupica in Bolivia is generally regarded as the species Capsicum cardenasii. However, Ulupica seem to be also used for Capsicum eximium in some instances. From what little is known, cardenesii seems to be more limited in it`s distribution to an area around La Paz in Bolivia, whereas eximium is distributed from southeastern Peru all the way to northern Argentina. 
 
To make things even more confusing, the cross between C.pubescens and Ulupica is also found in the wild, i.e. the Rocopica.
 
Finally, some taxonomists have written that the species C.cardenesii isn`t really a species, but a slightly different form of C.eximium. 
 
Yikes! 
 
Here are a few photos of the various flowers of these 2 species and one inter-species cross. 
 
C.cardenesii, bell-like flowers
 

 

 
C.eximium, flat, not-bell like flowers
 

 
 
Rocopica, can be a mixture, depending on the cross
 

 

 
 

First things first.
 
The most recent publications on Capsicum species say that C.eximium and C.cardenasii are separate species. This does not rely on the old ways of collecting samples, examining them with microscope and determining if they look different. The new work relies on a number of DNA sequences from each species. Like this one from 2011,
 
 
Hi Nigel, yeah there is some confusion , I grew for several years the rocopica with I got from a fellow who use to run Rocoto.com his cross was a natural cross found growing near some Rocoto pepper in La Paz in Bolivia he may have been the first person to grow it here in the states, the rocopica is a name that he gave it and the name stuck. 
Also the Rocoto X Ulupica cross has dark brown to almost black seeds like the Rocoto and the small pods have a little more flesh to them than the Cardenasii does, it is also larger.
C. cardenasii its self has smaller pods that has the soft flesh gene so that there is no pods that have any fleshiness to them i.e. skin, juice, seeds. I have notices that the flowers have a tighter bell like shape and are more blue than purple.
C. eximium has light tan seeds and the flowers open till they are completly flat this helps to cross pollinate other of its species, some of which are self sterile, also their is one type of C. eximium 19198 is lacking any heat ( I may be wrong on the PI number ) I belive I am growing it now. Most C. eximiums have pods that are smaller than most C. cardenasii pods because there is a on going market for the small unripe pods, hense selection for bigger pods is slowly ledding to wild plants having larger pods also this has not happened to C. eximium so they have pods that are very small. 
Since coming to the US and being grow by pepper lovers selection of larger pods in C. cardenasii and the cross has stopped to some extent and most plants produce pods that are both smaller and has fewer larger pods some even back crossing with C. cardenasii, also their may have been accidental crossing with C. cardenasii with C. eximium as they are so closely related as I have seen C. eximiums that have a more bell shaped flower and the color is more like C.cardenasii than eximium.
 
I at one point gave thought to a trial out crossing with C. baccatum with C. cardenasii and the Rocopia to see if I could get a fertal cross then back crossing again to a cardenasii or rocopica locking in the baccatum genes then crossing it with a C. pubescens to creat a new hybrid, and a later leading to a OP species that would take the hotter weather that we have here in the US. 
Do to my health I have put this project on hold, perhaps some one young with more time might one day try this idea .
Well Nigel I hope that this is of some small help,  all three species and crosses are quite interesting there has been talk of a species that has rusty to brown like flowers, but that is another story.
 
C. eximium is a very challenging  family to identify  for example the 19198 is the most productive plant, largest in size. on the other hand the 24332 is similar in pod size but not plant, it is smaller. the flower on the 19198 was the lighter than the 24332, the later one turns from green to browish to red. so those two are very confusing if you have not planted them both side by side. not far from the CGNs comes the 21502, this one is the smallest in all pod size, plant, and even production. much harder to germinate than the other two eximium. along with such characteristics the flower is much darker purple than the other two eximium. so there should be no problem identifying the 21502 from the other two. Now, The  CAP1530 is listed as cardenesii. here is where the confusion comes the cardenesii is very similar to the 21502. the flower, pods plant and all. i started to suspect it being the same plant at one point. need more research and to try to find out how to separate the cardenesii from the eximium
 
nice topic thank you for brinigng it up Nigel
 
So, as Judy rightly points out, telling these 2 species apart is not simple. I`d also wonder about whether there is a natural hybrid of eximium x cardenesii either in our gardens or in the wild. 
 
So where does Rocopica come from? Does it need cardenesii, eximium or an eximium x cardenesii hybrid to cross with a Rocoto? 
 
You`ve got this far and you`re starting to wonder "so what?"
 
In a nutshell, Bolivia is regarded as one of the likely places where the very first Capsicum species evolved. What we are seeing with eximium, cardenesii, pubescens and the Rocopica might throw some light on Capsicum evolution, but in this case it`s being played out right in front of us. If we were to find a type of Rocopica in the wild, would it constitute a new species in it`s own right? If not, why not? 
 
PepperLover said:
C. eximium is a very challenging  family to identify  for example the 19198 is the most productive plant, largest in size. on the other hand the 24332 is similar in pod size but not plant, it is smaller. the flower on the 19198 was the lighter than the 24332, the later one turns from green to browish to red. so those two are very confusing if you have not planted them both side by side. not far from the CGNs comes the 21502, this one is the smallest in all pod size, plant, and even production. much harder to germinate than the other two eximium. along with such characteristics the flower is much darker purple than the other two eximium. so there should be no problem identifying the 21502 from the other two. Now, The  CAP1530 is listed as cardenesii. here is where the confusion comes the cardenesii is very similar to the 21502. the flower, pods plant and all. i started to suspect it being the same plant at one point. need more research and to try to find out how to separate the cardenesii from the eximium
 
nice topic thank you for brinigng it up Nigel
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Nice to know ;). Funny how I was thinking about growing all three C. Eximium. and I talked to you about those.

Thanks to Judy I'll be growing all 3, except the Rocopica which I asked for this type in a few places and some want super rare stuff to trade which I don't have or no replies. Oh well...

-Walter
 
Nigel said:
I`d also wonder about whether there is a natural hybrid of eximium x cardenesii either in our gardens or in the wild. 
Click to expand...
CAP1530 maybe? Seems possible.

Been stewing on this all summer. Shows traits of eximium and cardenasii,more eximium in my opinion. One thing when ID'ing these guys is that you have to consider temps,sunlight,health,ferts,etc. when you are looking at the flower. They all affect the coloration and sometimes even the shape. A lot of times in full sun,the flowers will become ardent and expand fully. CAP 1530 does hang and give you the impression that it is campanulate,clearly it is star shaped. It has the violet coloration on the calyx also, easy to confuse with cardenasii.

This how my CAP1530 looked
9795278946_a9fc1f12ef_b.jpg

10863359183_dca92f5f4e_b.jpg


The pods have a pointy tip compared to the others,and seem smaller in size. You can see the shorter teeth and violet calyx. I pulled these off my plant today.
10863132245_db08ca20d8_b.jpg


Compared to another accession.
10863303774_82135afe89_b.jpg
 
Thanks, John. I was thinking whether this was the case, but I`m not knowledgeable enough about the specifics, nor have I grown enough types to really say as much. 
 
Next year I`ll have a number of different C.eximium-type plants, but is there a bona fide 95% certain C.cardenasii anywhere? 
 
Does anyone have the original publications describing these 2 species?

Ok, after a quick search, does anyone have CGN20497
 
Yes,there is. I have seen some super detailed photos and when presented properly,they are very different. In the process of procuring seed from said plant.
 
Pr0digal_son said:
Yes,there is. I have seen some super detailed photos and when presented properly,they are very different. In the process of procuring seed from said plant.
Click to expand...
CGN20497 appears to be a classic campellate C.cardenesii
 
When I first started growing wild species about 10 years back there was very few people that even knew about them, I got my seeds mainly rocoto's and a few C. chinense from the USDA Grin data base which was more friendly at that time, but as I stated I got my first really rare variety from the owner of Rocoto.com which got me to asking around and came across two people one of whom we all know CMPman1974 (Chris) and he had some cardenasii seeds along with some others that I was interested in and that stated me off on growing wild and domestic peppers from around the world.  
 
There very well be a hybrid cross of C.eximium and C. cardenasii growing in someones backyard or even in the wild to find them in the wild you would have to look along there home boundries where they might intercross. The Rocopica might be a valid species on its own right and there very well may be a hundreds growing in the wilds of La Paz.
 
Judy seems to be more educated when it comes to the wild species than most, so I pass the hat to her, Thank you Judy for the info about the them I have never had the chance to grow 24332 and 21502 nor have I grown the one Nigel has, we need more people to do research both in the Lab and in the field. when it comes to the wild ones.  All of this is very interesting  Hopefully more people will add to this.
It is important that we try to keep all the wild species from extinction
 
I found these pics in a site that also has some detail information about the Ulupica. This is the site----> applicaties.wageningenur.nl/applications/cgngenis/AccessionDetails.aspx?acnumber=CGN20497

Pics.


19950601_38_flower_2004.jpg

19950601_38_flower2_2004.jpg

19950601_38_ripe_fruit_2004.jpg

19950601_38_plants_2004.jpg


-Walter
 
We've got a facebook group, dedicated specially to cardenasii and eximium (called: capsicum cardenasii/eximium)

There are plenty of pics and discussion on that topic.

I for instance currently grow cap1491, cgn19198, cgn24332, cap500, wild pepper from bolivia, ulupica from la paz which all are clearly eximium. Then I have cgn20497 cardenasii and some eximium-cardenasii cross and ulupica xl which is pub x exi/car.

If you ask me, there are plenty more indicators to spot a differnece from these plants. Leave type for example is different and growth form is slightly different, too.
 
germanico said:
We've got a facebook group, dedicated specially to cardenasii and eximium (called: capsicum cardenasii/eximium)

There are plenty of pics and discussion on that topic.
Click to expand...
 
Would love to get in on the group, if anything just to check out some pictures!   I'm very interested in the road less traveled so to speak... genera other than what I'm calling the big five (annuum, baccatum, chinense, frutescens, pubescens).   Why is it some genus are considered domesticated, but others wild?   Is it just a matter of popularity?
 
Here are some pics I recently did, showing similarities and differences of wilds from cardenasii/eximium-type.
Notice: the cgn19198 is in it's second year - last years flowers had "common" purple in it - seems like it has lost the anthocyanin at overwintering indoors and not beeing fed properly...
 
Click for the gallery
 
germanico said:
Here are some pics I recently did, showing similarities and differences of wilds from cardenasii/eximium-type.
Notice: the cgn19198 is in it's second year - last years flowers had "common" purple in it - seems like it has lost the anthocyanin at overwintering indoors and not beeing fed properly...
 
Click for the gallery
Click to expand...
Nice pictures.
I have from your seeds CAP 1491 and Ulupica from LaPaz .
 
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