I'm going to put together a DIY aeroponic cultivation setup soon using a closed system with nebulizers and a liquid nutrient mix. Perhaps a compost tea? At any rate, I'm going to use it to grow Chinense variety peppers indoors, but I'm unsure of how to best germinate the seeds in preps for this sort of setup. Has anyone created an aeroponic growing environment before? I mean truly aeroponic using foggers, not hybrid-hydro using sprayers/misters.
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Aeroponic cultivation
- Thread starter -Pablo-
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That sounds like a cool project! I have a fair amount of experience with "Fogponics". If you have any questions I would love to help.
My first piece of advice is, don't do it.
Just kidding.
I only say that because the research for a simple setup results in the creation of a complicated setup.
First you try to figure out how to design a chamber to keep the fog around the rooots. Then you quickly discover that you need a fan.
The fan then requires a careful touch. They can circulate the fog. But they also have the ability to dry out all of your roots in about 2 hours.
Then you try to add in an air stone to keep the nutrients stirred up. At the same time it is stirring the nutrients it provides small droplets of water and humidity into the root zone. You start to notice that the roots look so much better than they did with just fog.
So you now have healthy looking roots and plants.
Why?
Most likely the air stone in the reservoir is the reason for the success. The droplets provided by the airstones are what is doing it. The fog droplets are so small that they almost seem to have a drying effect. I think it is actaully just a lack of water being nebulized.
The single head ultrasonic nebulizers do not convert enough water into fog to make them viable for all but the smallest systems.
Then you look into buying a 3 head fogger.
The three head fogger makes alot more fog than the single head. They also make alot more heat than the single head. So now your small chamber is getting too hot and the roots die.
So now you need a timer to regulate the on time for the fogger.
Eventually you have a revelation. If the airstones don't provide any heat input into the reservoir then I just need MORE airstones. A ton of airstones frothing up the reservoir and providing micro droplets of aerated water into the root zone. Suddenly the plants go crazy!
Holy Peppers BatMan! Look at those roots! Look at those plants!
So now your plants look great. But it is of course caused by the fact that the roots are hanging in the water.
If the roots start hanging in the water you have a Deep Water Culture system. Not fogponics.
If you make the chamber deeper so that the roots don't hang in the water then then you don't get enough droplets from the airstones to make the root
zone happy. So now you are back to the 3 head fogger with a fan, a timer, the airstones, and the larger root chamber. The bottom still does great with proximity to the splashing water. But the top struggles to get enough moisture.
My suggestion is to start out with aeroponics in a tried and true way. Look into High Pressure Aeroponics. Either with a fogger added, or without.
By the time you have spent all the time and money on a DIY fogponics system you could have built or bought a true aeroponics system. Run some Google and Youtube searches on High Pressure Aeroponics before you rule it out. Check out a few systems and even if you don't buy one you can get some ideas for your own DIY setup.
Do not use compost teas in an ultrasonic system. It will basically sterilize the beneficial biologicals in the tea. Then it starts to rot. Not good. I've done it.
As far as starting the seeds. I have always used rockwool cubes. They transplant directly into net pots which are perfect for aeroponics or fogponics systems.
Whew! My hands are cramping.
Not trying to scare you away from fogponics. But it really needs another element to succeed. Like the airstones making droplets, or sprayers, or alot of fog heads. Oh, and don't ever buy a fogger with a brass transducer disc. Only get the Teflon/Ceramic coated foggers.
Please don't hesitate to ask any questions if I haven't already made you mad.
My first piece of advice is, don't do it.
Just kidding.
I only say that because the research for a simple setup results in the creation of a complicated setup.
First you try to figure out how to design a chamber to keep the fog around the rooots. Then you quickly discover that you need a fan.
The fan then requires a careful touch. They can circulate the fog. But they also have the ability to dry out all of your roots in about 2 hours.
Then you try to add in an air stone to keep the nutrients stirred up. At the same time it is stirring the nutrients it provides small droplets of water and humidity into the root zone. You start to notice that the roots look so much better than they did with just fog.
So you now have healthy looking roots and plants.
Why?
Most likely the air stone in the reservoir is the reason for the success. The droplets provided by the airstones are what is doing it. The fog droplets are so small that they almost seem to have a drying effect. I think it is actaully just a lack of water being nebulized.
The single head ultrasonic nebulizers do not convert enough water into fog to make them viable for all but the smallest systems.
Then you look into buying a 3 head fogger.
The three head fogger makes alot more fog than the single head. They also make alot more heat than the single head. So now your small chamber is getting too hot and the roots die.
So now you need a timer to regulate the on time for the fogger.
Eventually you have a revelation. If the airstones don't provide any heat input into the reservoir then I just need MORE airstones. A ton of airstones frothing up the reservoir and providing micro droplets of aerated water into the root zone. Suddenly the plants go crazy!
Holy Peppers BatMan! Look at those roots! Look at those plants!
So now your plants look great. But it is of course caused by the fact that the roots are hanging in the water.
If the roots start hanging in the water you have a Deep Water Culture system. Not fogponics.
If you make the chamber deeper so that the roots don't hang in the water then then you don't get enough droplets from the airstones to make the root
zone happy. So now you are back to the 3 head fogger with a fan, a timer, the airstones, and the larger root chamber. The bottom still does great with proximity to the splashing water. But the top struggles to get enough moisture.
My suggestion is to start out with aeroponics in a tried and true way. Look into High Pressure Aeroponics. Either with a fogger added, or without.
By the time you have spent all the time and money on a DIY fogponics system you could have built or bought a true aeroponics system. Run some Google and Youtube searches on High Pressure Aeroponics before you rule it out. Check out a few systems and even if you don't buy one you can get some ideas for your own DIY setup.
Do not use compost teas in an ultrasonic system. It will basically sterilize the beneficial biologicals in the tea. Then it starts to rot. Not good. I've done it.
As far as starting the seeds. I have always used rockwool cubes. They transplant directly into net pots which are perfect for aeroponics or fogponics systems.
Whew! My hands are cramping.
Not trying to scare you away from fogponics. But it really needs another element to succeed. Like the airstones making droplets, or sprayers, or alot of fog heads. Oh, and don't ever buy a fogger with a brass transducer disc. Only get the Teflon/Ceramic coated foggers.
Please don't hesitate to ask any questions if I haven't already made you mad.
Awesome, awesome, awesome! Okay, now I KNOW I joined the right community. This place rocks.
SO essentially I need a system that will sort of expand along with the plants. Hmm, that sounds like high pressure aeroponics. I'm totally not opposed to tackling large scale projects (hell, I work for Google) so this doesn't frighten me.
Perhap a tiered root chamber might be a viable approach? Maybe a movable water pan with nebulizers I could place in a setup similar to oven racks, and just move them down as the roots progress?
nortonriderr I'll definitely be taking your experience to heart as I start out on this project. It'll be a while, but when I do get to the build, I'll be sure to post pics/progress here for SURE.
SO essentially I need a system that will sort of expand along with the plants. Hmm, that sounds like high pressure aeroponics. I'm totally not opposed to tackling large scale projects (hell, I work for Google) so this doesn't frighten me.
Perhap a tiered root chamber might be a viable approach? Maybe a movable water pan with nebulizers I could place in a setup similar to oven racks, and just move them down as the roots progress?
nortonriderr I'll definitely be taking your experience to heart as I start out on this project. It'll be a while, but when I do get to the build, I'll be sure to post pics/progress here for SURE.
Your nutrients better be running very very clean, or they will not nebulize into the air as you wish.
Using compost teas and such might 'gum' up your whole system.
I would use only high end nutes like GH and nothing else.
I'm sure it could work very well, but I wouldn't put much past the first month, then your roots will be so big they will need something to grab onto, or your plant might just fall over / stress out it's stem.
I would love to see how it works for cloning tho, I have heard of home made aero-cloners, but have yet to really see one.
Good Luck!
Using compost teas and such might 'gum' up your whole system.
I would use only high end nutes like GH and nothing else.
I'm sure it could work very well, but I wouldn't put much past the first month, then your roots will be so big they will need something to grab onto, or your plant might just fall over / stress out it's stem.
I would love to see how it works for cloning tho, I have heard of home made aero-cloners, but have yet to really see one.
Good Luck!
"Perhap a tiered root chamber might be a viable approach? Maybe a movable water pan with nebulizers I could place in a setup similar to oven racks, and just move them down as the roots progress?"-Pablo
That can work. There are systems available with that type of design. I am a personal fan of hybrid systems. Why limit your crop to one method? If you build a killer system designed for fog you are limited to growing with fog. Why not let the roots dangle in the water? The plants love it. It really allows the plant to maximize the root mass. Roots exposed to fog alone will have one type of growth. Thin, wispy, fuzzy little guys. The roots allowed to dangle in the water or lay on the bottom of the tray will have another type of roots. Thick, beefy, hardy roots. They each serve a purpose, and the plant will decide where it wants them to go. The wispy roots can absorb water and nutrient molecules directly from the air with a minimum of energy expenditure by the plant. The thick roots can uptake larger quantities of water when the plant is in midday heat.
I have done low pressure aero, high pressure aero, fog, ebb and flow, deep water culture, shallow water culture, nutrient film technique, etc... Pretty much every available method of soil free growing. I'm not that great with dirt.
The one thing I have noticed with experience is this.
Plants grow in water :-)
As long as they have enough. Or even too much water, with plenty of Oxygen .
I try to stress to friends and students all the time, as long as you have clean water, nutes, and O2, you have happy plants.
You can put the water in the air, as a mist or low micron fog. Or sprayed from low pressure sprayers directly on the roots.
Or you can put the air in the water. With air pumps and bubble stones to circulate and super oxygenate the reservoir and allow the roots to breathe.
I guess this is just a REALLY long winded way of saying on thing.
Let the peppers decide which way they want to do it.
Aspore- You are right about using "clean" nutes. GH may not be high end, but they are high purity. The GH 3 part is derived from minerals rather than from biologicals. If you start with sterile crushed rock and minerals you end up with really pure nutes. Very little risk of biological contamination. Much different from starting with a compost pile and ending up with bio soup. In my experience the bio's are the trouble. You want the good biologicals but not the bad. An "organic" nute formula is nearly impossible to maintain in any hydro type system. I use, and recommend, Sea Green beneficial biologicals. Adding the right microbes will keep you from having a bio slime growing system instead of a plant growing system. They allow the beneficial microbes to outnumber the bad ones right from the start.
Sorry if I am talking too much.
That can work. There are systems available with that type of design. I am a personal fan of hybrid systems. Why limit your crop to one method? If you build a killer system designed for fog you are limited to growing with fog. Why not let the roots dangle in the water? The plants love it. It really allows the plant to maximize the root mass. Roots exposed to fog alone will have one type of growth. Thin, wispy, fuzzy little guys. The roots allowed to dangle in the water or lay on the bottom of the tray will have another type of roots. Thick, beefy, hardy roots. They each serve a purpose, and the plant will decide where it wants them to go. The wispy roots can absorb water and nutrient molecules directly from the air with a minimum of energy expenditure by the plant. The thick roots can uptake larger quantities of water when the plant is in midday heat.
I have done low pressure aero, high pressure aero, fog, ebb and flow, deep water culture, shallow water culture, nutrient film technique, etc... Pretty much every available method of soil free growing. I'm not that great with dirt.
The one thing I have noticed with experience is this.
Plants grow in water :-)
As long as they have enough. Or even too much water, with plenty of Oxygen .
I try to stress to friends and students all the time, as long as you have clean water, nutes, and O2, you have happy plants.
You can put the water in the air, as a mist or low micron fog. Or sprayed from low pressure sprayers directly on the roots.
Or you can put the air in the water. With air pumps and bubble stones to circulate and super oxygenate the reservoir and allow the roots to breathe.
I guess this is just a REALLY long winded way of saying on thing.
Let the peppers decide which way they want to do it.
Aspore- You are right about using "clean" nutes. GH may not be high end, but they are high purity. The GH 3 part is derived from minerals rather than from biologicals. If you start with sterile crushed rock and minerals you end up with really pure nutes. Very little risk of biological contamination. Much different from starting with a compost pile and ending up with bio soup. In my experience the bio's are the trouble. You want the good biologicals but not the bad. An "organic" nute formula is nearly impossible to maintain in any hydro type system. I use, and recommend, Sea Green beneficial biologicals. Adding the right microbes will keep you from having a bio slime growing system instead of a plant growing system. They allow the beneficial microbes to outnumber the bad ones right from the start.
Sorry if I am talking too much.
You know, I hadn't really NOT considered letting the roots dangle into the the water basin. I kinda figured that was an inevitability with a fixed-size aero chamber using a basin of water with floating nebulizers. I hadn't considered heat issues though, and am under the assumption nebulizers didn't put out that much heat. Is this not the case?
And please, please don't think you're talking too much! I have much to learn!
And please, please don't think you're talking too much! I have much to learn!
Amen Willard!
It is all too easy to overthink it.
Pablo- The ultrasonic foggers create a fair amount of heat. The single head foggers don't but the 3, 5, or 9 head ones do. It really depends on the size of the reservoir and the amount of circulation it gets. You can also make the fogger remote. Then you pipe the fog to it. Like the system sold by Nutramist, only about 5% of the price if you DIY.
It is all too easy to overthink it.
Pablo- The ultrasonic foggers create a fair amount of heat. The single head foggers don't but the 3, 5, or 9 head ones do. It really depends on the size of the reservoir and the amount of circulation it gets. You can also make the fogger remote. Then you pipe the fog to it. Like the system sold by Nutramist, only about 5% of the price if you DIY.
Awesome, I was thinking of doing a fogger too. Glad I didn't, although I'd quickly find another use for the fogger.
Aeroponics it is!
Ahha, from wiki -
Sourced from Stoner, R.J. and J.M. Clawson (1997-1998). A High Performance, Gravity Insensitive, Enclosed Aeroponic System for Food Production in Space. Principal Investigator, NASA SBIR NAS10-98030.
Second edit: Just read the damn wiki article, it's full of great info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics
Aeroponics it is!
Ahha, from wiki -
Sourced from Stoner, R.J. and J.M. Clawson (1997-1998). A High Performance, Gravity Insensitive, Enclosed Aeroponic System for Food Production in Space. Principal Investigator, NASA SBIR NAS10-98030.
Second edit: Just read the damn wiki article, it's full of great info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroponics
@11010490
I agree with you. The fogger alone is not the best option. Fog and mist together are AMAZING. Especially if you have a Fog, Mist, NFT. Or fog/mist/DWC.
The plants shoot out a heavy tap root and have roots with trichoblasts(micro fine hairs) as well. The best of both worlds.
The data in the study you mentioned has a tragic flaw IMHO.
The Stoner/NASA study was quite a revelation to me when I first saw it. I was convinced that NASA would choose the best system money could buy. The word "Best" is what has thrown many people off track with this type of system. It seems that there is a small segment of growers chasing a red herring. They think any drips or runoff negate the benefits of the aero method. I personally think the plants know best. If the plant wants a tap root they should be able to do it.
The system requirements for zero gravity are radically different from anything here on terra firma. There is no gravity in space to control flow and direction of the water. If you use any water/nutrient dispensing method other than 30-60 micron droplets you end up with balls of water floating around. The surface tension of the water makes it coalesce into larger particles. Those larger particles will eventually hit a leaf or stem. When that happens you basically smother the leaf and/or allow rot to begin.
While I agree that the aeroponic method is "stellar".
You can't really make a direct comparison to a space related grow op. If they COULD use an aero/nft hybrid then they WOULD. The lack of gravity prevents the benefits of runoff from the system. Thick tap roots do not form in the type of system NASA has to use. So they are trying make it work the best they can given the environmental variables and restrictions.
I agree with you. The fogger alone is not the best option. Fog and mist together are AMAZING. Especially if you have a Fog, Mist, NFT. Or fog/mist/DWC.
The plants shoot out a heavy tap root and have roots with trichoblasts(micro fine hairs) as well. The best of both worlds.
The data in the study you mentioned has a tragic flaw IMHO.
The Stoner/NASA study was quite a revelation to me when I first saw it. I was convinced that NASA would choose the best system money could buy. The word "Best" is what has thrown many people off track with this type of system. It seems that there is a small segment of growers chasing a red herring. They think any drips or runoff negate the benefits of the aero method. I personally think the plants know best. If the plant wants a tap root they should be able to do it.
The system requirements for zero gravity are radically different from anything here on terra firma. There is no gravity in space to control flow and direction of the water. If you use any water/nutrient dispensing method other than 30-60 micron droplets you end up with balls of water floating around. The surface tension of the water makes it coalesce into larger particles. Those larger particles will eventually hit a leaf or stem. When that happens you basically smother the leaf and/or allow rot to begin.
While I agree that the aeroponic method is "stellar".
You can't really make a direct comparison to a space related grow op. If they COULD use an aero/nft hybrid then they WOULD. The lack of gravity prevents the benefits of runoff from the system. Thick tap roots do not form in the type of system NASA has to use. So they are trying make it work the best they can given the environmental variables and restrictions.
This is a post I put up the other day. Aeroponics can work, even on a large-scale, for-profit operation. If there is one piece of advise I could give is if using nozzles, never use less than 150 psi - you just don't get efficient atomization otherwise and will end up wasting a lot of water and nutrients.
I definitely recommend an open-loop system where the solution does NOT get re-used. There is too much opportunity for root disease if you recirculate, unless you add a large UV lamp in the system and increase DO more than you would otherwise have to. This system I built (19,000 SF over 2.5 years) left minimal exposure for the water to pick up anything. Well water was processed through a large DIY reverse osmosis system (>2,000 GPD), stored in multiple 86-gallon pressure tanks, then right when it was time to mist, the pressure tanks pushed it through Dosatrons @ 20 psi regulated, then to a booster pump that took me to between 150 - 225 psi, depending on the size of the circuit.
Once the tubes were misted, I had a "safety" ad the bottom of the tube drain rows in the form a tensiometer that would sense water coming down the drain trough and override the solenoid and booster pump relay to shut down so that I would not waste more than a gallon of nutrient solution per misting cycle (I know a gallon sounds like a lot, but in nearly half an acre of greenhouse, it ain't much).
The Linux program controlling it ran off an uninterrupted power supply and ran literally continuous for 5+ years without having to touch it (haha - take that, Bill Gates!!).
I haven't tried ultrasonic foggers yet, but plan on it in 2012. It will definitely be an open-loop system to reduce headaches. Is that more wasteful than closed-loop systems? Yes, but not by much if engineered properly and the problems one avoids tends to be worth it.
Here's that picture of my old aeroponic greenhouse I was talking about. I'm at the back end of the first structure. Total floor space amongst all three was ~19,000 SF. An old-school computer (it was a 486 PC) running Linux was fed environmental information through the joystick port (all in ohms - temperature, sunlight intensity, humidity, etc.) and the printer port was used to control a bank of 32 relays, all running 24 VAC that in turn controlled real world events (exhaust fans, evap cooling, tube fogging).
Inside those vertical tubes was........... nothing. Just air, with a <5 micron misting nozzle operating at 150-225 psi. Depending on the conditions, it could fire for 5 seconds once every few hours during cooler nights, or for 120 seconds every 5 minutes during sunny, 90-degree plus weather. A lot of air was available to the roots and growth rates were astounding. Plants on the left are 2 days from transplant in 3/4" oasis wedges, plants on the right are 9 days from transplant. In August, I could go from tiny seedling to 1/4=lb of leaf super-bushy basil plants in 19-20 days.
Sorry for not putting my face in the picture. I'm *done* with "face mining" software such as is prevalent on Facebook where emerging facial recognition programs are taking hold. Sophie the Mastiff's head is much more fun to look at anyhow....
I definitely recommend an open-loop system where the solution does NOT get re-used. There is too much opportunity for root disease if you recirculate, unless you add a large UV lamp in the system and increase DO more than you would otherwise have to. This system I built (19,000 SF over 2.5 years) left minimal exposure for the water to pick up anything. Well water was processed through a large DIY reverse osmosis system (>2,000 GPD), stored in multiple 86-gallon pressure tanks, then right when it was time to mist, the pressure tanks pushed it through Dosatrons @ 20 psi regulated, then to a booster pump that took me to between 150 - 225 psi, depending on the size of the circuit.
Once the tubes were misted, I had a "safety" ad the bottom of the tube drain rows in the form a tensiometer that would sense water coming down the drain trough and override the solenoid and booster pump relay to shut down so that I would not waste more than a gallon of nutrient solution per misting cycle (I know a gallon sounds like a lot, but in nearly half an acre of greenhouse, it ain't much).
The Linux program controlling it ran off an uninterrupted power supply and ran literally continuous for 5+ years without having to touch it (haha - take that, Bill Gates!!).
I haven't tried ultrasonic foggers yet, but plan on it in 2012. It will definitely be an open-loop system to reduce headaches. Is that more wasteful than closed-loop systems? Yes, but not by much if engineered properly and the problems one avoids tends to be worth it.
Here's that picture of my old aeroponic greenhouse I was talking about. I'm at the back end of the first structure. Total floor space amongst all three was ~19,000 SF. An old-school computer (it was a 486 PC) running Linux was fed environmental information through the joystick port (all in ohms - temperature, sunlight intensity, humidity, etc.) and the printer port was used to control a bank of 32 relays, all running 24 VAC that in turn controlled real world events (exhaust fans, evap cooling, tube fogging).
Inside those vertical tubes was........... nothing. Just air, with a <5 micron misting nozzle operating at 150-225 psi. Depending on the conditions, it could fire for 5 seconds once every few hours during cooler nights, or for 120 seconds every 5 minutes during sunny, 90-degree plus weather. A lot of air was available to the roots and growth rates were astounding. Plants on the left are 2 days from transplant in 3/4" oasis wedges, plants on the right are 9 days from transplant. In August, I could go from tiny seedling to 1/4=lb of leaf super-bushy basil plants in 19-20 days.
Sorry for not putting my face in the picture. I'm *done* with "face mining" software such as is prevalent on Facebook where emerging facial recognition programs are taking hold. Sophie the Mastiff's head is much more fun to look at anyhow....