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seeds Are seeds in one fruit identical? (Bit of genetic talk)

L

lozzajp

I am reading up on and interested in cross breeding and selective breeding some chillis.
 
Just a simple question, I know obviously seeds from one plant will vary differently in their dominant and recessive genes but will one fruit from one flower contain identical seeds or will that one fruit's seeds contain a varied gene selection from both parents?
 
The short answer is no .... but in some circumstances yes...
 
1)  Each seed is created when a flowers embryo is fertilised by a grain of pollen.. If the plant is perfectly homozygous and self fertilizes, then  'yes' the genetic code in each seed should be close (there's always mother nature interfering lol) if not perfectly the same.
 
2)  If the father plant and mother plant are both homozygous and of the same geno then the same theory should apply..
 
3)  If the father plant is a different variety to the mother but both are  homozygous, then once again the seeds should be the same, that being said ongoing generations will not be due to recessive traits. This is caused by each plant giving 50% of the Geno and through breeding further generations having recessives come to the surface.
 
4) If one or both parents are Heterozygous then when pollen hits embryo there is a 50% chance for one of each pair of genes to go to the final seed. So in this case you could expect a Yellow pod seed to be next to a red pod seed in the same fruit etc. as each pollen attaches to an embryo there is a DNA dice roll at that that conception moment, the only reason it appears that stable plants don't dice roll is all the numbers on the dice have been made the same an example
 
- Parent A)   RED / yellow  ( or R/y)   Parent B)   yellow / RED or (y/R)
 
There is be a 25% chance that the seed could be a Red with a no recessive's ( or R/R ) a 50% chance its Red with recessive Yellow ( or R/y and y/R ) and 25% its Yellow with no recessive  ( or y/y ) check out Mendel's law for more info.. That ALL being said, In this circumstance each seed COULD and will be different, any exact matches will be coincidental.
 
5)  There is also the possibility that two completely different Father parents or more.. could fertilise a flower.. And therefor mix up the DNA even more.. ( This can be accomplished by mixing up pollen from several plants and manually pollinating a flower with it )
 
Mother plant
Plant A  -  Mother Plant
 
Father plants - Pollen mixed
Plant B  - Pollen mixed
Plant C  - Pollen mixed
Plant D  - Pollen mixed
 
End result of lets say 7 seeds in pod.
 
AB - AC - AC -AD - AB - AC - AB    could be theoretical possibilities. ( This is sound science and I plan on embarking down this path soon for fun )
 
 
6)  From there you have even more possibilities
 
If all 4 parents were Heterozygous then you could have a HUGE range of possibilities for the seeds.. !!!!
 
--- There is a WHOLE other topic about pepper stabilisation relating to this ---
 
But to answer your question, each seed is its own unique being that CAN contain varying genes.. even Identical ones are only identical through chance or purity of strain .. not by default.
 
*** This is the reason behind people breeding homozygous or stable varieties.. Imagine breeding a pepper with a green parent and a yellow parent with another pod with a red parent and brown parent and wanting to refine the colour to green in your future pods.. You have a whole lot of gene clutter to get through to stabilise those pods. Much easier to get a green / green pod and mix it with a YELLOW / YELLOW and look for that 25% chance of green.  
 
 
*** Sorry I just read your post again and realised I started on dominant / recessive info that you already know about.. But in essence its relevant in some ways to each pod containing varying genetic codes in each seed...
 
KrakenPeppers said:
 
*** Sorry I just read your post again and realised I started on dominant / recessive info that you already know about.. But in essence its relevant in some ways to each pod containing varying genetic codes in each seed...
Click to expand...
 
No worries, was a good read.
 
Thanks for the insight :)
 
 
The short answer is no .... but in some circumstances yes.. (...)
Click to expand...
 
Excellent answer! Was unaware of that cross-breeding technique with mixing pollen, that you explain in pt. 5. I am definately going to try that out, which leads me to the following question:
 
I know that you can remove the ripe stamens prior to pollen release, and put them into an enclosed container, and that they will release the pollen within a day or so. But consider a situation where your plants for one reason or another is not flowering at the same time, and that you'd have to wait for other flowers to get ripe in order to collect and mix it. For how long a period can you keep pollen and use it successfully for pollination? Is there any way to store pollen for a prolonged period of time?
 
Cheers
 
Keep it spicy
 
I believe you meant to say 'anthers' being removed for pollen =P...
 
In relation to pollen storage I done some research way back and never got a definitive answer. I have read that it can be hours.. I have read up to months. I can confirm that most sources do say it very dependant on temperature and moisture levels though. Pollen will last longest stored in a room temperature dry condition.
 
I have personally put flowers into a container overnight to let them dry and then use the pollen the following day to fertilise flowers and it worked fine so I would say you should have at least 24 hours.. I personally believe pollen would last several days at least but am purely guessing. Moisture is apparently a killer of pollen as is extreme heat and cold being the reason why flowers tend to release their pollen at certain times of the year and temperatures.  
 
As I only usually fertilise 2-3 flowers at any one time on a plant I haven't really needed to harvest large amounts of pollen and will just use flowers on both plants at the time so I have never really had a need to work these things out further.
 
When I want to manually fertilise flowers I grab a high pollinating flower from the father, and tap the pollen into a black plastic spoon. I then remove the anthers and flower petals from my mother flower just before opening and slide the tip of the stamen around the spoon, its easy to see the pollen being picked up by the stamen and see the little tracks of missing pollen on the spoon.  I also move the plant into a shaded area as not to let the flowers be exposed to too much direct sunlight in case the temperature's get too high and kill off the flower. I believe this is why I have read that lower flowers on plants are the best targets for crossing as they have a whole plant of shade above them.
 
I only ever do 2-3 at any one time then wipe my spoon clean and start again fresh just to keep purity high.
 
If you wanted to say manually pollinate 10-20 flowers or more at once with a single batch to create a lot of F1 seed stock, I would harvest several flowers and use a cotton bud.. I prefer the dark spoon method as I find it easier to see the contact with pollen. ( Just need to be careful not to apply pressure to the pistol as you can break it at the base easily if not careful ).
 
So unfortunately I cant confirm any timeframes for you, I read from one source 1-2 hours but I have  personally proven that wrong  (although I did have the removed flowers attached till I shook it free if that kept it viable? ) , and I have heard other sources say several months.. Due to the fact plants are so resilient and capable of reproducing in extreme circumstances I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was weeks or months.
 
I would recommend you harvest the whole flower and store several in an airtight warm container until you need it then shake the pollen loose prior to applying it.
 
 
Enjoy
 
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