Battling with broad mites; neem sprays not seeming effective.

[Takanotsume]

As per suggestion from some around here, I've following a weekly spraying plan (2 tsp cold-pressed neem/1 tsp Dr. Bronners. soap in a quart of water) for a rather sprawling Aji Limon plant that has a pretty bad infestation as almost of all the new growth tips/nodes have been killed off or badly damaged at this point, with a few isolated parts of the plant remaining pristine and untouched for whatever reason.
 
The thing is, despite being very thorough about spraying the mites only seem to be absent from the leaves for maybe a day or two before I'll check them to find that they're covered with them yet again (This was after I had made sure the mixture was emulsifying properly, too), and the damage continues to occur.
 
While the sprays did seem effective in the past for culling small numbers of them, they really don't feel like they're working this time for some reason. The only change I've made in regards to the spray is that I've been using Bronner's almond-scented soap instead of peppermint, but I don't think that would make a difference.
 
Would it be better to just prune the parts of the plant that look to be badly infested to be certain I'm taking out the bulk of the mites, then focus on protecting the healthy parts they haven't reached yet?
 

 

[bob65]

What I find effective against broad mites is lime sulphur, I don't know if you can get it over there or not.
 
Cut off all the affected foliage (it won't heal or grow normally)
 
 
Edited to add
 
If you can get and use lime sulphur, then give it a few weeks after the oil treatment, it says on the label of the bottle I use that they don't go well together.

 

[Caranx]

I tried most organic solutions and nothing really helped me against broadmites and thrips.

I ended up looking into chemicals and what i found actually working for me was abamectin and dimethoate. First rotating between them and then go over to using only the dimethoate. Don't use it on plants that are putting out pods. And wear protective clothing and mask, don't spray near where mammals and fish are.

I heard good stuff about sulphur but didn't find a place to buy it here. If I get another infestation in the future i think i will order some online to try it. These chemicals are nasty stuff but they do work, a less toxic solution would be preferred tho.

 

[solid7]

Sulfur is a nuclear bomb.  It kills every critter in the garden.  If you're in Hawaii, you have to be extra careful, because your soil (and environment) is already acidic.  Getting too much in the soil can cause other issues.  And like bob65 said, you must wait a minimum of 2 weeks after your last Neem treatment to use it.
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Not sure what the difference in experiences is. (if anybody knows why some people have such great luck with Neem, while others struggle, please speak up)  I've used Neem with great success on broad mites.  But you definitely need to keep up on treatments, and no matter what option you go, you need a comprehensive strategy to keep them at bay.  If you have as bad of a problem with mites on your pepper plants as you say, you should also be noticing it in the surrounding plants.  I get broad mites so bad here, that even the weeds look like somebody has gone through with a drum of Roundup.  You absolutely have to keep your pepper garden weed free, and don't give them quarter.  If you see whitefly, treat IMMEDIATELY.  

 

[Doelman]

Sulfur is a nuclear bomb.  It kills every critter in the garden.  If you're in Hawaii, you have to be extra careful, because your soil (and environment) is already acidic.  Getting too much in the soil can cause other issues.  And like bob65 said, you must wait a minimum of 2 weeks after your last Neem treatment to use it.
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Not sure what the difference in experiences is. (if anybody knows why some people have such great luck with Neem, while others struggle, please speak up)  I've used Neem with great success on broad mites.  But you definitely need to keep up on treatments, and no matter what option you go, you need a comprehensive strategy to keep them at bay.  If you have as bad of a problem with mites on your pepper plants as you say, you should also be noticing it in the surrounding plants.  I get broad mites so bad here, that even the weeds look like somebody has gone through with a drum of Roundup.  You absolutely have to keep your pepper garden weed free, and don't give them quarter.  If you see whitefly, treat IMMEDIATELY.  

 
If I remember correctly, he's growing in containers on his deck.  It's hard for me to imagine he's having as bad of a problem as he says if he's using neem properly.  I would really like to see pictures of the damage he's talking about.

 

[solid7]

 
If I remember correctly, he's growing in containers on his deck.  It's hard for me to imagine he's having as bad of a problem as he says if he's using neem properly.  I would really like to see pictures of the damage he's talking about.

 
Agreed.

 

[flexy123]

Do NOT mix the Neem with soap.
 
https://www.growertalks.com/Article/?articleid=23465
 
Alternate spraying the soap to kill whatever crap is alive, and then afterwards spray Neem oil in the recommended dosage after a few hours. That's what I would I do.
 
From the above link you can learn that it's the Neem OIL...and of course also the active substance in Neem (azadirachtin) is what it's about.
If you mix with soap, well, the oil isn't a oil any longer so it could hamper its effectiveness. (Aside from the fact that Neem likes to be sprayed in a solution at low ph, 4-6, which you certainly don't get with a soap solution as the ph will be sky-high.
 
That being said, I know that broad mites are one of the hardest pests to get rid off. But I would definitely try what I said. Other problem, do you know the recommended dosage for using your Neem oil? If you don't know the percentage of azadirachtin in it, then how can you dose so it's effective? This is why I never get "just neem oil" but Neem oil products where the percentage of azadirachtin along with the recommended dosage for plants is stated on the label. Otherwise you're just guessing and experimenting. Common sense would tell me that "cold pressed Neem oil" could have a much lower azadirachtin precentage than a neem oil product that is made for pest control.

 

[solid7]

Do NOT mix the Neem with soap.
 
https://www.growertalks.com/Article/?articleid=23465
 
Alternate spraying the soap to kill whatever crap is alive, and then afterwards spray Neem oil in the recommended dosage after a few hours. That's what I would I do.
 
From the above link you can learn that it's the Neem OIL...and of course also the active substance in Neem (azadirachtin) is what it's about.
If you mix with soap, well, the oil isn't a oil any longer so it could hamper its effectiveness. (Aside from the fact that Neem likes to be sprayed in a solution at low ph, 4-6, which you certainly don't get with a soap solution as the ph will be sky-high.
 
That being said, I know that broad mites are one of the hardest pests to get rid off. But I would definitely try what I said. Other problem, do you know the recommended dosage for using your Neem oil? If you don't know the percentage of azadirachtin in it, then how can you dose so it's effective? This is why I never get "just neem oil" but Neem oil products where the percentage of azadirachtin along with the recommended dosage for plants is stated on the label. Otherwise you're just guessing and experimenting. Common sense would tell me that "cold pressed Neem oil" could have a much lower azadirachtin precentage than a neem oil product that is made for pest control.

 
I beg to differ with the pot heads on this one.  No, it's not "just" an oil anymore.  But try telling them that when they use Azamax.  Same shit, different surfactant.  The pH is a small issue.  I don't pH my Neem/soap mix, but I have in the past, using lemons.  If you read the commercial products, they do use citrus by-products. (citrus flavonoids) 
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Neem is not a neutral topical.  Clarified Neem is.  Clarified Neem is just an expensive oil, with aza extracted, so no extra benefits.  But if it's the full verson,  you emulsify it, and you spray it on the leaves. Or you drench for soil born pests.
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The point with the soap is not to get a "2 in 1" effect - but rather to employ a *cheap* emulsifier.  We use Dr. Bronners, in particular, because there is evidence that suggests that the essential oils have a secondary benefit - a repellant for some insects.  And like I've said when this came up before - if you want a contact kill, then use the soap, not the Neem.  You will definitely kill SOME pests on contact, but it's not the main mechanism. 
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And to address the percentage of aza in cold pressed Neem vs specific products - most manufactured products contain about 3.2% aza, and are dosed at roughly the same amount as cold pressed.  And they cost 2-3 more than cold pressed Neem.  And cold pressed works very well for peppers.  Can't speak about weed.  That's not my crop.  But I do know that it's not unknown how much Neem is used for pesticide purposes.  It's a simple Google search.  The upper and lower limits for dosing are quite readily available.  If you're suggesting that a "100% cold pressed" product is not truthfully labeled, then I'd suggest that it's the same for any off the shelf product. The fact that there is a recommended max dose, is to account for the fact that amounts may vary, naturally.  (but don't overlook the cost of cold-pressed vs manufactured)

 

[solid7]

Common sense would tell me that "cold pressed Neem oil" could have a much lower azadirachtin precentage than a neem oil product that is made for pest control.

 
This is not a proper application of so-called "common sense".  It's just your uninformed opinion on the matter.  Neem application is VERY specific.  There is a "too much" amount.
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From the Azamax product spec:
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Foliar Application: Mix 1 to 2 oz. per gallon of water

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From the Dyna Gro (cold pressed Neem) product spec:
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Mix 1½ Tsp. Per quart of water (1 oz./gal.),

 

[Takanotsume]

I've done a thorough inspection of the nearby plants in the yard and haven't seen any other mite infestations or whiteflies for that matter.
 
Maybe I should use pure soap in a stronger concentration and see if that kills them then go back to using the neem spray once they're gone to keep the whiteflies off the plant and prevent new infestations from happening?

 

[flexy123]

It's not my "uninformed opinion". Many/some growers are getting cold pressed Neem oil, say which is manufactured for cosmetic purposes. I don't know about the percentage of aza in those products (there, yes, call me uninformed) and those growers who get these products also don't know it..and they don't know about dosing for plants since it doesn't say on the label! This is the exact reason WHY they are coming on the forums and either asking for recommendations for dosage for spraying, or that they report it seemingly doesn't work. If I get a commercial product designed as an insecticide, I know beforehand how much to use and I don't need to go on a forum and ask. I know the exact dosage for my sprayer. I could now get on ebay on get some other natural Neem oil, and I wouldn't know a thing about the right dosage compared to, Azawhatever. How would I know?

 

[solid7]

I've done a thorough inspection of the nearby plants in the yard and haven't seen any other mite infestations or whiteflies for that matter.
 
Maybe I should use pure soap in a stronger concentration and see if that kills them then go back to using the neem spray once they're gone to keep the whiteflies off the plant and prevent new infestations from happening?

 
So, one other person did request that you post some pics of the full extent of the damage. Not seeing any whitefly isn't such a big thing, but not seeing ANY sign of broadmite damage on anything else outside, doesn't really make a strong case for broadmite.  They don't exactly make a beeline for peppers.  If you were an indoor grower, yeah, it's whatever is there.  But here is what it looks like when you have broadmite about:
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First pic: minor damage. 
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Second pic: same plant as first pic, but perfectly healthy. (no broad mites)
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I actually use plants like this as an indicator of when the broadmites are out in force.  If your outdoor plants are infested, you should also see telltale signs.  They literally don't just attack peppers, specifically.  In my general experience, peppers are one of the least preferred, and only really desirable before they reach maturity. (not to say they won't attack after that)

 

[solid7]

That was a pretty terrible pic of what the full damage looks like but I have the problem whupped for this part of the season.  It's the worst damage I could find, at the moment.  But typically, half of my yard has plants like that ( ^^^ ) which look like they've been hit with weed killer.   

 

[Doelman]

I'm going to guess he's over fertilizing.  The growth tips are coming in wrinkled/deformed because of way too much nitrogen and he's assuming it's broadmites.  This is what he said in his last post and this is in conjunction with what's already in the commercial potting soil he's using.
 
"As far as fertilizer goes, I've been giving it a 10-15-10 synthetic liquid fertilizer diluted to half strength every other watering, as well as a kelp/epsom salt foliar spray every few weeks."

 

[acs1]

That was a pretty terrible pic of what the full damage looks like

Maybe these pics will help shed light on broad mite damage, and less than the best type of neem oil used....
 
First pic was before a total drenching soak of clarified neem application June 29, 2019. Mixed exactly as instruction on the triple action neem bottle. Spray was done right after solid7 informed me this pic showed broad mite damage.

 
The second pic was just taken today 3.5 weeks latter. After taking solid7's advice and spraying neem, then topping plant.
 
Since the spray/topping 3.5 weeks ago and weekly following neem applications the plant has 4 new shoots/stems that emerged from the topping and new growth is flourishing with flowers and setting new fruit....
 
Are the mites gone now...?

 

[solid7]

Yep, that's what should happen.  Nice recovery, by the way.

 

[acs1]

Yep, that's what should happen.  Nice recovery, by the way.

 

Thanks, learned from the best    got to luv this forum.
 
To have this forums knowledge base available to pepper growers is an amazing benefit for all pepper growers. A wealth of pertinent info on growing is here for all with a simple search. Or a simple question posted in the right forum...

 

[Takanotsume]

I'm going to guess he's over fertilizing.  The growth tips are coming in wrinkled/deformed because of way too much nitrogen and he's assuming it's broadmites.  This is what he said in his last post and this is in conjunction with what's already in the commercial potting soil he's using.
 
"As far as fertilizer goes, I've been giving it a 10-15-10 synthetic liquid fertilizer diluted to half strength every other watering, as well as a kelp/epsom salt foliar spray every few weeks."

 
I haven't fertilized the plant for over a month now.
 
I can also visibly see the mites moving around on most of the smaller leaves and the damage I'm seeing looks virtually identical to that picture that was posted previously.

 

[solid7]

 
I haven't fertilized the plant for over a month now.
 
I can also visibly see the mites moving around on most of the smaller leaves and the damage I'm seeing looks virtually identical to that picture that was posted previously.

 
How are you seeing them move about?
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The only way that I have ever seen broad mites, was under a microscope.  Some claim that you can see them with a magnifying glass, but my eyes certainly aren't that good. It would take a jeweler's loup or better, to catch a glimpse of them.  If you just see the critters with your naked eye, we are probably not talking about broad mites...
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Not trying to doubt you, but want to make sure that we're trying to slay the right beast.  Although, I'm not sure how we could be using a broad mite treatment, and not be killing everything else...

 

[Takanotsume]

Hawaii is known to have broad mites, but it is rather likely this is actually some other species. The only thing I can really discern is that they're whitish in color and they move around quite a bit when disturbed.
 
It's possible there may also be some predatory mites in the yard, since I've heard they tend to be larger and more mobile then the plant eaters, and I occasionally see ones like that on and around the plants (Some are big enough that you can make out their legs).
 
I haven't taken a look at either with a microscope or magnifier since I figured anything able to kill broad mites would also deal with whatever these things are. I guess it still wouldn't hurt to take a closer look and figure exactly what they are, though.