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chinense Chinense x Annuum crosses

If you had to cross an annuum with a chinense, which varieties of each would you choose?

I'm thinking of attempting some hybrids, to produce a chinense cross that's better suited to PNW, especially the cool coastal areas. In the Vancouver area (BC) we've being getting night temps down to 10C/50F in early August. Not ideal for chinenses, but the annuums don't seem to mind it.

I was thinking of crossing a Moruga Scorpion with Goat's Weed or Del Arbol. Or even a paprika, to really maximize the flavor complexity. I'd like the resulting crosses to have at least 350,000 scovilles, but more is, of course, better.

If anyone has any experience with these types of crosses, I'm all ears.
 
LordTriffid78 said:
Greenman, interesting. How did the fruits on the crossed plants turn out?
I got three different phenos in F2 and selected the brown one. (the Bhut Jolokia Parent was brown)
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Tepin x my (Trinidad Moruga Scorpion x 7JPN). I'd do it for wild genes and smaller fruit (nice hot snacking pepper). Technically they already have capscum anuum from the pimenta de Neyde. I'd also would cross any purple c. annuum with any Trinidadian c. chinese for fruity flavor sans Trinidad scorpions that don't have a fruity flavor.
 
It's cool that you're thinking of doing this - I'm a big fan of this sort of cross. I've been wanting to do this for a similar reason - due to the zone I'm in, and the fact that I grow in pots, most of the peppers I've grown haven't done so well - especially the chinenses I've started from seed. There are some other factors too, like maybe not watering as much as I should, or not having great potting soil. But I'd like some small-sized chinense-like peppers that grow well in pots.
 
I have quite a few that I'd like to try, but this is dependent on if they actually flower this year so I can cross them... So far, I've found that Aji Pineapple (Baccatum) and a thai-like cayenne (Annum) I have grow really well in pots. So I'm going to attempt to cross some other peppers with these. Unfortunately an animal bit off my Aji Pineapple x Orange Blob pod, that was gonna be cool...
 
Green Man, those pods look awesome - if you still have seeds for any of the F2, and are willing to share, I'd love to try them out.
 
Finally, if you're looking for some cool peppers like this, Matt's peppers has a good supply of peppers that fall into this category. I have my eye on a BB7 x Tobasco...
 
Best,
Pimental
 
Sorry for the double post, but I found some forum topics that should hopefully be good resources for good cold-resistant varieties to cross with. I'm also including small-plant/pepper/pot varieties, as in my mind they usually fit in the heartier category. Not really sure if that's the case, but it seems reasonable.
 
Cold Temp Pepper resources:
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/54244-cold-resistance/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/50606-best-peppers-for-cold-season/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/47918-best-smallbushy-plants-to-keep-indoors-in-the-cold-of-winter/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/30359-trinidad-scorpion-cold-tolerance/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/44883-cold-hardy-chinense/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/36647-cold-hardiness/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/73152-cold-country-small-balcony-grow-accordingly-2020/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/72373-cold-tolerant-varieties-to-grow-outside-as-perennials/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/70954-reliable-and-prolific-annuum-for-a-cold-climate/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/69483-cold-winter-hot-peppers-fryphaxs-quest-to-have-fresh-hot-sauce-on-christmas/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/63741-take-all-my-money-just-dont-hurt-my-peppers-smallbutfierces-attempt-to-make-hot-peppers-grow-in-the-cold-2017/
 
(Last two fit more with my personal "how well do these things grow in pots" question)
 
 
 
Small Plant/Pepper/Pot varieties:
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/70723-favorite-pepper-plant-w-small-size/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/68844-best-pepper-varieties-for-small-containers/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/68085-looking-for-small-prolific-pepper-in-the-500-3000-range/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/61856-your-favorite-small-semi-wild-chinense-pepper/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/62151-the-hottest-small-pepper/
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/37125-small-pepper-plants/
 
I am also very interested in this topic. I have a lot of chinense peppers in the garden in my current zone 4-5 garden. I am not used to growing in this climate and I would really like to be able to get some chinense level heat in a fast-ripening pepper.
 
If there are any existing varieties out there I would love to know about them. otherwise I am planning to start some crossing this winter.

Thanks!
 
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I went on an impromptu cycling trip, and took a break from the inter-tubes. It looks like a number of you are already experimenting with these and similar crosses. I definitely plan on looking up tutorials for crossing on youtube, just to brush up. Luckily I've also learned how to cross pollinate flowers at school. This fall I'll be putting my orders in for the seeds of the varieties that I plan on using in these crosses. Any suggestion for preferred venders would be appreciated. I was thinking of ordering most from Atlantic Pepper Seeds, seen as how they have a large variety of seeds, and they are actively developing varieties for their cool, short Maritime summers.

After doing a bit of research, I think I've come to the conclusion that one of the hottest and earliest of annuums is Purira (still not sure if this actually a frutescens), which I have grown before. It does seem to be quite early, cool tolerant, and very hot. Another one I've recently come across was Firecracker (again, there seems to be confusion on line if it's annuum or frutescens). There appears to be mixed reports on it's heat level and days to maturity, no doubt due in part to it not being very common, so there's probably not a lot of grower experience. Some say 70 days, others 90 days. And the scoville rating is said to be anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 shu. So, perhaps like the Purira, there is variation in heat levels from plant to plant. Interestingly enough, it has multi-coloured fruits, like a Purira, but they are short and fat, and all point completely upwards, and taste fruity. The plants are suppose to be compact as well, and do well in containers. This is a new one for me, and sounds like such an interesting pepper, that it may be worth growing on it's own, as well as for use in crosses.

I also looked into cayennes, with an eye for larger, +100,000 shu, with early fruit. All I came across was the Charleston Cayenne. Not sure if this is early, I think it's 70-75 days. 60-65 days would be ideal. Ring of Fire Cayenne is a good one which actually is 65 days, but it's only 80,000 shu, and the fruits are smaller. I've had really good success with that variety in my area, and I'd consider it a the standard cayenne for coastal BC/ Lower Mainland/ Fraser Valley.

Of course, there are lots of more options if maximizing the heat isn't a limiting factor, and I can think of many varieties of annuums that will produce reliable in cool, short summers. In BC, the ones that have become common in the trade are Bulgarian Carrot, Hungarian Hot Wax (and a few other similar varieties), Early Jalapeno, Serrano, and Orange Hab and Red Caribbean Hab. Hot Paper Lantern seems to be common in a lot of seed catalogues in Canada, but it doesn't seem to be produced commercially, at least not out west. Another one I've had my eye on is Nigel's Outdoor Pepper from the Real Seed Company in the UK, which is said to be the only hot pepper that can produce fully ripened peppers planted outdoors in most parts of England and Wales. In fact, their website claims that it ripen reliably outdoors in Wales, which is pretty impressive given Wales reputation for being cold, wet, and basically not getting what we in NA would consider a real summer. So I'm definitely going to be ordering that one, if not for crossing, then just to have one more reliable outdoor hot pepper for this region. Yellow Siam is also suppose to be quite hot, and remains productive in cooler climates. [SIZE=11pt]Chimayo sounds like a good one, to, the description on the Adaptive Seed website says it's only 65 days, but it sounds like the fruits are only moderately hot, but they sound super tasty.

Anyway, that's what I've come across so far. I'll keep you all posted as the project progresses, and may have some seed to trade or give away at some point. All and any advice and pointers would be appreciated, and I'd definitely like to hear about what ever crosses anyone else has already worked on.
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Pimental said:
It's cool that you're thinking of doing this - I'm a big fan of this sort of cross. I've been wanting to do this for a similar reason - due to the zone I'm in, and the fact that I grow in pots, most of the peppers I've grown haven't done so well - especially the chinenses I've started from seed. There are some other factors too, like maybe not watering as much as I should, or not having great potting soil. But I'd like some small-sized chinense-like peppers that grow well in pots.
 
I have quite a few that I'd like to try, but this is dependent on if they actually flower this year so I can cross them... So far, I've found that Aji Pineapple (Baccatum) and a thai-like cayenne (Annum) I have grow really well in pots. So I'm going to attempt to cross some other peppers with these. Unfortunately an animal bit off my Aji Pineapple x Orange Blob pod, that was gonna be cool...
 
Green Man, those pods look awesome - if you still have seeds for any of the F2, and are willing to share, I'd love to try them out.
 
Finally, if you're looking for some cool peppers like this, Matt's peppers has a good supply of peppers that fall into this category. I have my eye on a BB7 x Tobasco...
 
Best,
Pimental
I wish I had more seeds. I planted or shared all I had, and now am hoping the brown pod parent survives. I had to do a rescue on it, and it seems to be recovering slowly, so hopefully it will produce some more fruit. The seeds I have planted don't seem to be sprouting at all. I know at least 1 other person has seeds so maybe they'll have better luck than me.

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thegreenman said:
I wish I had more seeds. I planted or shared all I had, and now am hoping the brown pod parent survives. I had to do a rescue on it, and it seems to be recovering slowly, so hopefully it will produce some more fruit. The seeds I have planted don't seem to be sprouting at all. I know at least 1 other person has seeds so maybe they'll have better luck than me.

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Yeah, that cross looks and sounds really cool. I have been thinking of doing a wild bird or tepin x Naga or Trinidad super hot cross, so it's cool being able to see what they might end up looking like. The wild bird definitely tends to have a dwarfing effect. Years ago, someone posted pictures of the pods from the pods of what I think may have been chiltepin x Carolina Reaper cross. They looked slightly smaller than a grape, and had a really weird, twisted and balled-up look to them. I think I may have saved the pictures that were posted somewhere.
 
I'm a big fan of Pimenta De neyde crosses as well. They bring in the possibility of black and or purple fruit, annuum genes, and of course... purple flowers! 
 
Going deeper into this, a cross with those annuum genes already present may be able to cross more easily with other annuum varieties as the plant can be considered a bridge plant in that regard.
 
We see the same thing with GreenLeaf Tabasco which is a Capsicum frutescens crossed back and forth with C. chinense.
 
Interestingly enough, C. chinense 'UFO' or C. annuum 'UFO'... has an interesting history as well. Discovered at a local nursery in Florida, some suspect the UFO of being an interspecific hybrid as it was originally sold as C. chinense at that nursery. The true history of the UFO will perhaps always be a mystery, but I've also heard some rumors of others using it in interspecific hybrids. 
 
Whatever the case, I am a fan of bringing in more purple flower genes, etc. from annuum into the C. chinense, but is it truly needed?
 
For me, I have a few very dark black phenotype with dark purple flowers I am working on, but I also know I'm not the only one and flowers on C. chinense that have purple in them can have anywhere from a simple line of purple running down the middle of each petal to full on dark purple covering the entire back side of the flower and so much more. It is all very exciting to me and that purple black is something I will continue to work with in my garden. 
 
Interestingly, I am growing two PDN crosses this year (7JPN and Sepia Reaper x PDN). Neither have purple flowers.
 
I'm also growing a PDN, but one of the Sepia Reaper x PDN plants actually has darker leaves than the PDN. So weird.
 
Two varieties I didn't expect to have purple flowers have them: Primo x Purple Bhut and Naga Smooky Rainbow. Not sure what the parents are for the Naga Smooky, but the shape and texture of the leaves makes it look like there's some C. annuum in there.
 
Pollen Nut, you may want to look into Fatalli Seeds' Purple Bhut if you want purple flowers without C. annuum genes.
 
stringer said:
Interestingly, I am growing two PDN crosses this year (7JPN and Sepia Reaper x PDN). Neither have purple flowers.
 
I'm also growing a PDN, but one of the Sepia Reaper x PDN plants actually has darker leaves than the PDN. So weird.
 
Two varieties I didn't expect to have purple flowers have them: Primo x Purple Bhut and Naga Smooky Rainbow. Not sure what the parents are for the Naga Smooky, but the shape and texture of the leaves makes it look like there's some C. annuum in there.
 
Pollen Nut, you may want to look into Fatalli Seeds' Purple Bhut if you want purple flowers without C. annuum genes.
not weird at all... simply genetics. It is like variegation... you can cross a non-variegate to a variegate and get zero variegation in the f1, it is the f2 that you can select out the trait again however and that is where you can also lose it for the first time.
 
Another thing to consider, we aren't growing clones of other plants when we grow pepper seeds. We are growing just one possible combination out of many... even if the differences are subtle... there can be differences unless one is claiming to have a totally homozygous and true breeding pepper with zero heterozygous genes.
 
I've seen many crosses that are the result of insects... take the famous Wartryx for example. Wartryx is said to have C. baccatum genes, but then the cross was done at least in part by insects so who really knows for certain what is in that one. 
 
The truth is, many crosses are best guesses at what the insects might have done and we try to figure out the truth of the matter after we see the progeny.
 
Still, some crosses aren't really crosses necessarily at all, but rather off-phenotype expressions that we see as more seedlings are grown out. That is code of course for not true breeding yet....
 
Wow haven't had the luck of insect crossing Jeje
Well really don't know as I use to grow the same parentals from clone always from S1 seeds just to be sure.
I think mhpb or purple bhut has some annum on their gen pool, very prolific and cool resistant and keeps the nuclear bhut taste but I can noticed a little bit inferior heat compared to brown or red bhut.
I'm growing also some PDN hybrids and no purple/pink flower neither but I'm sure some purp notes could be achieved Jeje at least these are my hopes on the Pdn projects
 
Just a quick comment, but either for crosses or just to try: the Aji Painapple (Aji Pineapple x Butch T Scorpion) is of note in this thread. Speaking of which, if anyone has or knows of where I could get seeds for that variety, I'd be interested.
 
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