seeds coir vs soil - seed starts

indy_chuck

indy_chuck

Here is a link to a video of seed starts that were started one week apart.  The soil used for the two peppers were started on 1 April (Jiffy seed start mix).  The coir peppers were started on 8 April.
 
The coir/perlite peppers are significantly lacking behind.  They are lacking behind mostly due to my ignorance on how to feed them, they've gotten only water to this point and I'm curious what works for the ones that use the coir/perlite medium?
 
I am not doing a true A/B comparison due to the different family of peppers.  I've also transplanted the soil peppers from the seed start trays due to their size.
 
I like the coir/perlite mixture and I have a much higher success ratio of seeds germinating with this setup, but I'm at a loss on when and what to feed them at this 4 week stage.
 
https://vimeo.com/215892672
 
 
Thank you!
 
nice comparison. Could be useful for those tricky species that refuse to pop.
 
I imagine whatever method you choose for feeding will have to be heavily diluted at such a young stage. 
 
Have you seen the differences in root size? maybe just some root growth stuff would be a good idea idea.
No idea if that's an issue just an errant thought that  popped into my head.
 
Would be awesome to see the same type of pepper side by side. I mean there's no way you have enough peppers yet (there's never enough)
 
indy_chuck said:
Here is a link to a video of seed starts that were started one week apart.  The soil used for the two peppers were started on 1 April (Jiffy seed start mix).  The coir peppers were started on 8 April.
 
The coir/perlite peppers are significantly lacking behind.  They are lacking behind mostly due to my ignorance on how to feed them, they've gotten only water to this point and I'm curious what works for the ones that use the coir/perlite medium?
 
I am not doing a true A/B comparison due to the different family of peppers.  I've also transplanted the soil peppers from the seed start trays due to their size.
 
I like the coir/perlite mixture and I have a much higher success ratio of seeds germinating with this setup, but I'm at a loss on when and what to feed them at this 4 week stage.
 
https://vimeo.com/215892672
 
 
Thank you!
Click to expand...
 
The #1 rule when dealing with coco coir - you MUST pre-charge it with a calcium supplement.  Coco coir has a high cation exchange rate, and of the first things that it will grab, is calcium.  It will make potassium available to your plants, in the process.  Otherwise, it naturally holds the potassium, making it unavailable to your plant.
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If you pre-dose your starts with some form of calcium - preferably not a phosphate base - I believe you'll see much better success rates.
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If you're doing a seed start in coir, it's almost better to buy a quality bag. You can prep the coir yourself, but you should test it before use.  You can get away with an EC of about 1.0mS/cm for growing, but should be much lower for seeding - around .5mS/cm.  Good quality bagged coir will have no problem with this.  Inflated coir, however, you are on your own...
 
I use a very fine coir,and add my own perlite and vermiculite. I cant find tripple bufferd bagged coir so i use the blocks and wash them to remove the salts. I give it a lime wash also and then when im finished when i make the mix i add some more lime to mix in. Pot up the seed trays and water with a fish emulsion to give it a nutrient kick.
 
alkhall said:
I start seeds in coir pellets, and transplant the pellets into Ocean Forest after two or three sets of true leaves.
 
I have not tried loose coir, but I have read about the calcium lockup. However, I am not sure it will have a great effect on seedlings that young.
 
Pics of some two week old (or less) seedlings from my glog: http://thehotpepper.com/topic/63290-alkhall-2017/#entry1425985.
Click to expand...
 

It's not calcium lockup, though.  It's potassium lockup.  And it definitely can have an effect on young plants, if it robs their calcium in exchange for miniscule amounts of potassium.
 
Gonzo said:
I use a very fine coir,and add my own perlite and vermiculite. I cant find tripple bufferd bagged coir so i use the blocks and wash them to remove the salts. I give it a lime wash also and then when im finished when i make the mix i add some more lime to mix in. Pot up the seed trays and water with a fish emulsion to give it a nutrient kick.
Click to expand...
 

If you haven't measured the EC, you may still have a lot of sodium in there.  Maybe you have good luck - and I hope that you do - but you really need a soluble calcium source to displace the excess sodium.  The lime isn't it...  You need it in the form of something like calcium acetate.
 
Lime needs to be treated first with an acid such as vinegar. Getting the mix to a neutral or slightly acid ph would be preferable. You should be able to achieve the same result with dolomite and also get a shot of magnesium too.
 
Gypsum should work though without an acid, Its not a carbonate. IIRC its calcium sulfate.
 
Products like CalMag Plus use calcium ammonium nitrate but only have roughly 3.2% calcium in them. CNS 17 grow actually has a little more but its also higher in nitrogen. By comparison, Alaska fish and kelp pellets have 7% calcium and costs MUCH less.
 
Jobes even offers a water soluble vegetable and tomato formula with around 8% iirc. Its also supposed to have biozome aka myko in it. I really wanted to try this stuff since its also 3-1-2 but nobody has it locally.
 
ShowMeDaSauce said:
Products like CalMag Plus use calcium ammonium nitrate but only have roughly 3.2% calcium in them. CNS 17 grow actually has a little more but its also higher in nitrogen. By comparison, Alaska fish and kelp pellets have 7% calcium and costs MUCH less.
Click to expand...
 
So I agree with all of this, but I'm a little hesitant to ever recommend the Alaska fish pellets, because the day after application, the pots have almost always been tampered with it.  Don't get me wrong - they do work great.
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You might as well bag it and sell it as cat food.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of dissolving some of the pellets in some water and "charging" the coco over night. Then give it another quick rinse. When i spread them on the ground plot they started to fall apart rather quickly after a rain.
 
I have a calcium magnesium acetate i made from dolomite and calcium carbonate vitamin suppliments. I just need to check the ph but i think i got it right. I plan on using it this time around.
 
ShowMeDaSauce said:
I was thinking more along the lines of dissolving some of the pellets in some water and "charging" the coco over night. Then give it another quick rinse. When i spread them on the ground plot they started to fall apart rather quickly after a rain.
 
I have a calcium magnesium acetate i made from dolomite and calcium carbonate vitamin suppliments. I just need to check the ph but i think i got it right. I plan on using it this time around.
Click to expand...
 

For coco coir, I don't use calcium and magnesium.  There is so much disagreement on the relationship between the 2.  However, the calcium is absolutely a necessity.  I'd go with eggshells in vinegar, but the other probably works fine, too.  I have some on hand for my tomatoes in peat based mixes. 
 
solid7 said:
 
It's not calcium lockup, though.  It's potassium lockup.  And it definitely can have an effect on young plants, if it robs their calcium in exchange for miniscule amounts of potassium.
Click to expand...
 

I see... but, correct me if I am wrong, does potassium not affect blossoming and fruiting mostly?
 
Anyway, perhaps the best solution is to not start seeds in loose coir?
 
solid7 said:
 
For coco coir, I don't use calcium and magnesium.  There is so much disagreement on the relationship between the 2.  However, the calcium is absolutely a necessity.  I'd go with eggshells in vinegar, but the other probably works fine, too.  I have some on hand for my tomatoes in peat based mixes. 
Click to expand...
 
I have two dozen egg shells that have been washed out and were boiled in water for about 15 minutes.  I placed them in the dehydrator overnight and put them in a sealed Fido jar......what's my next step?
 
What is my vinegar:water ratio and how is it applied to the plants?
 
alkhall said:
 
I see... but, correct me if I am wrong, does potassium not affect blossoming and fruiting mostly?
 
Anyway, perhaps the best solution is to not start seeds in loose coir?
Click to expand...
 

It's not that it doesn't affect, it - just that magnesium isn't the limiting factor with coir.  And realistically, we're just trying to pre-charge the coir - not feed.  You still have your nutrient or fertilizer to supply that, as an essential.  And since more isn't better, you might as well (in my opinion) separate the tasks.  Charging/buffering is one task, feeding is another, separate, task.
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For some, it may be best not to start in loose coir, yes.  If you know how to deal with it, and don't mind, though, I say go for it.  It's a fantastic start media.
 
indy_chuck said:
 
I have two dozen egg shells that have been washed out and were boiled in water for about 15 minutes.  I placed them in the dehydrator overnight and put them in a sealed Fido jar......what's my next step?
 
What is my vinegar:water ratio and how is it applied to the plants?
Click to expand...
 

The vinegar to eggshell ratio is basically whatever it takes to neutralize the vinegar.  I am not very precise with my process.  I use a 1 gallon jug of white vinegar, dump about a liter out, and fill the bottle back up with eggshells. (yes, I make a lot at one go)
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Be careful, because you really need to test your first batch, and it's not a quick process.  The main part goes quickly, but getting last 10% neutralized, takes a lot longer. (maybe a couple weeks)  Shake the container every day, NEVER cap it tight!
 
solid7 said:
 
It's not that it doesn't affect, it - just that magnesium isn't the limiting factor with coir.  And realistically, we're just trying to pre-charge the coir - not feed.  You still have your nutrient or fertilizer to supply that, as an essential.  And since more isn't better, you might as well (in my opinion) separate the tasks.  Charging/buffering is one task, feeding is another, separate, task.
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For some, it may be best not to start in loose coir, yes.  If you know how to deal with it, and don't mind, though, I say go for it.  It's a fantastic start media.
Click to expand...
 

Since going to coir pellets three years ago, I have to agree, that for me, it has been better than peat pellets or seed starting mixes.
 
Having never tried loose coir, I cannot comment on the efficacy, but it seems sort of a waste to use so much medium simply to start a seed that may or may not germinate when pellets are both compact and economical.
 
Personally, I would never use coir as the main medium for container plants, and would using sparingly as a soil amendment for my raised bed.
 
alkhall said:
 
Since going to coir pellets three years ago, I have to agree, that for me, it has been better than peat pellets or seed starting mixes.
 
Having never tried loose coir, I cannot comment on the efficacy, but it seems sort of a waste to use so much medium simply to start a seed that may or may not germinate when pellets are both compact and economical.
 
Personally, I would never use coir as the main medium for container plants, and would using sparingly as a soil amendment for my raised bed.
Click to expand...
 

I'm just the opposite... I spent the time messing with it, so now I know its quirks.  Coco plants grow fast!
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The only point that I'd make on using both for starting and final, is that there is some advantage in using the same media throughout.  No PH swings, no transplant adaptation, etc.  But I will say for containers, I do tend to water down some of its advantages by adding compost.  So I probably, realistically, don't get any better plants any quicker than anyone else.   But I do notice that it outlasts peat by about 3X...
 
After digging through some extensive articles it looks like gypsum for peat/perlite potting mixes should get 2.5tbs (41gr) per bushel of potting mix. A bushel is 8 dry gallons
 
This kinda made my head hurt just reading through all of it. http://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.cfm?number=B931
 
Im not totally sure how well this would relate to coco based potting mix but it certainly wont be too much for a couple 4-5gal containers of coco.
 
 
Don't think too hard 
 
One part coco coir 
One part PREMIUM compost
One part aeration (90% lava rock / perlite, 10% other stuff like bark, rice hulls etc)
 
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