Could use some diagnostic help...

stettoman

Extreme Member
My Container Aji Oro, while ultimately giving me almost 20 pods, suffered from a sickly appearance all season, yet functioned otherwise "normally", though not robustly.
 
Aji Oro2 8-31-20.jpg

 
I decided to overwinter this plant, hoping the inverted cupping might cease with a trim-back, good rinse, root trim, new soil ( FoxFarm Ocean Forest) and a sanitized gallon pot.
At first it came back lush and healthy...
 
aji oro 11-30-20.jpg

 
But this last week, along with a proliferance of flower buds emerging, the inverse cupping suddenly recurred over just a few days, along with the purple coloration of stems.
 
Aji Oro Cupping 12-16-20.jpg

 
A newly sown Aji Oro, from seed of the above parent, is also beginning to show some of this cupping, along with a tinge of the purple.
 
Aji Oro Baby Cupping 12-16-20.jpg

 
I know that nutrient deficiency (magnesium?) can cause the coloration issue, but the cupping--systemic? Genetic (indications are)? What is NOT happening is stunting or leaf drop or any indication of any infestation beyond these leaves all assuming the fetal position...I took a LOT of seeds from this plant, as hard as it is for me to find outside sources. 
 
I'd feel a lot better with some knowledgeable input... :pray:  :pray:  :pray:
 
 
 
A lot of times, when I see that happening, I'd be checking for grubs.  But that's kind of throwing a curveball.  It's definitely not leaf curl virus. 
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You're absolutely sure that it's nothing environmental?  Down here, when I grow rocotos - because they are so out of their element, they often look like that, due to heat and humidity.  Or so I've always assumed.  They seem to grow really well until temps and swelter pick up, and then they look really sad like that.  This time of year, when it's cool and dry, they really kick ass, though.
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
solid7 said:
A lot of times, when I see that happening, I'd be checking for grubs.  But that's kind of throwing a curveball.  It's definitely not leaf curl virus. 
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You're absolutely sure that it's nothing environmental?  Down here, when I grow rocotos - because they are so out of their element, they often look like that, due to heat and humidity.  Or so I've always assumed.  They seem to grow really well until temps and swelter pick up, and then they look really sad like that.  This time of year, when it's cool and dry, they really kick ass, though.
 
I almost thought nematodes, mostly because I read some stuff Pepper Guru posted a while back, but I would have noticed that when transplanting, right?
Aji Oro roots.jpg

 
I posted this on my glog as well, a couple of the guys agree with you on environmental concerns, they were suggesting mitigating my lighting situation, which I'm modifying for possible effect. I've eliminated the brighter LED panels and am using 5000K daylight LEDs exclusively. This change was made yesterday, timing on a 12/12 schedule. I'm just not sure if the problem is intensity, duration or spectrum related, or a combination...
 
Thanks for responding, this is really buggering me...
 
stettoman said:
 
I almost thought nematodes, mostly because I read some stuff Pepper Guru posted a while back, but I would have noticed that when transplanting, right?
attachicon.gif
Aji Oro roots.jpg
 
I posted this on my glog as well, a couple of the guys agree with you on environmental concerns, they were suggesting mitigating my lighting situation, which I'm modifying for possible effect. I've eliminated the brighter LED panels and am using 5000K daylight LEDs exclusively. This change was made yesterday, timing on a 12/12 schedule. I'm just not sure if the problem is intensity, duration or spectrum related, or a combination...
 
Thanks for responding, this is really buggering me...
 
Nematodes would leave gnarled up roots with bulbous growths - neither of which I see in your photo.
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LEDs these days can be absolutely intense.  Much more than you'd think.  That could very well be.
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Interested to see what happens.  Please keep this updated...
 
My uneducated guess would be too intense of light. Some Thai and Jalapenos for me were doing similar cuing, except far worse. Raising the light and backing the intensity off 50% helped in my case.
 
Demented said:
My uneducated guess would be too intense of light. Some Thai and Jalapenos for me were doing similar cuing, except far worse. Raising the light and backing the intensity off 50% helped in my case.
 
So I was also going to suggest this, but fast tracked my answer.  I'd contact the manufacturer of the light, and ask them for specific umol values at specific heights.  Some provide it, some you have to almost beat it out of them.  I have one particular COB fixture that I found was putting out way more light than either my eyes or the wattage would have indicated.
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Often, you can get around this by just raising the light.  In my case, i was able to raise it by almost 2X.  This had the knock-on effect of giving me a significantly larger growing footprint.
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Not saying that will be the case here, but it's not bad info to have, in any event.
 
It might not be as obvious due this being a Rocoto, but I have an inkling there may be a Phosphorus issue here.
 
PeriPeri said:
It might not be as obvious due this being a Rocoto, but I have an inkling there may be a Phosphorus issue here.
 
How so?  Phosphorus is easily the most overused of all macros - but very few pepper growers ever see single nutrient deficiencies that aren't nitrogen, and it certainly isn't exhibiting excess P.
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
I've adjusted lighting height and timing (20", 10.5 hours on), we'll see how big this thing gets, eh?
 
stettoman said:
I've adjusted lighting height and timing (20", 10.5 hours on), we'll see how big this thing gets, eh?
 
I'm not sure what model you have - but for reference, I have a "400 watt" (obviously it's not) COB, that I have at a height of about 36" from the soil line.  I was working very close to that 20" at first, but it was creating white spots on my leaves, consistent with sun scald (albeit, more spots, and smaller in size).
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
solid7 said:
 
I'm not sure what model you have - but for reference, I have a "400 watt" (obviously it's not) COB, that I have at a height of about 36" from the soil line.  I was working very close to that 20" at first, but it was creating white spots on my leaves, consistent with sun scald (albeit, more spots, and smaller in size).
 
This I will have to monitor. I had a Chinense plant that developed a BLS type situation and I removed it from the room, and I have a XL Brown Rocoto plant that showed signs of shock after a time but seems to be recovering that has not had a sign of the curling going on above. The Aji Oro OW started to show yellowing on leaves deep under the canopy which I attribute to light deprivation, but as you can see by the above photos, that plant grew extremely lush extremely quickly and I'm sure the undergrowth suffered from the proliferation...My Apollo is model GL80LED, which now advertises at 240 watts ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FGG1HDM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) . When I purchased this a few years back it was touted @ 300. One of their techs must have adjusted the specs.
 
In any case the Apollo has done no damage that I'm aware of previously, but then again I'm not the most observant cookie in the keebler tray....
 
stettoman said:
 
The Aji Oro OW started to show yellowing on leaves deep under the canopy which I attribute to light deprivation, but as you can see by the above photos, that plant grew extremely lush extremely quickly and I'm sure the undergrowth suffered from the proliferation...
 
If your plants get too bushy indoors, it's a good idea to give them a "flat top", to keep the light somewhat consistent.  Along with that, rotate the plants every week or so, from middle to edges, to help even it all out.  And, it's not a terrible idea to prune them to grow more like trees.  
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You can definitely get a light depravation situation going.  There's such an array of different variables with grow lights.  I'm not so much trying to state that you have "problem X" or "situation Y", so much as I'm just trying to help you ask the right questions.  I'd be lying if I said I had the answer for you.  I just know how to ask the questions. :)
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It's probably good to know if your lights have UV spectrum or not, also.
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
Apollo GL80LED:
Spectrum of Light : Vegetated Stage - 430-475nm, 620-630nm, 660nm and White
Spectrum of Light: Growth & Bloom - 430-475nm, 620-630nm, 660nm, 730nm and White
 
The Homtigo panel actuall has attenuation of both vegetative and bloom/fruit spectrums, but I've shut that one down fr the present:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B081ZQ62SJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Product description states no light properties, however.
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
solid7 said:
Funny enough, Apollo Horticulture has a webpage with their products, and a "contact us" link that is dead... :D
 
 
Huh, you know, I got the same impression with S&W. Their contact us link might as well be dead....
 
The plants of this species and family I have grown from this region of the world have always responded well to flourescent lights. Purely anecdotal,I guess,but it's a fair sample size. I understand the shift to LED's and have a few running myself;6400k t5 and t8 have always produced good results with these guys for me though.

I am missing some pieces to this puzzle. What is the period of time between the nice growth after the repot and the wonky growth in the next photo? Ocean Forest is generally a hot mix that can last around 30 days indoor. What type of or amount of feed did you give this plant along the way,if any?

Raising the light as mentioned above is a good starting point and not a crazy knee jerk reaction that gets a lot of people in trouble. What's interesting to me is that after the repot the plant was in mint condition and showed no ill effects from the lights.
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
Pr0digal_son said:
The plants of this species and family I have grown from this region of the world have always responded well to flourescent lights. Purely anecdotal,I guess,but it's a fair sample size. I understand the shift to LED's and have a few running myself;6400k t5 and t8 have always produced good results with these guys for me though. Thanks, SkullBiker has mentioned good results with 8000K fluorescents, I am considering a switch, considering all 3 plants are Rocoto. 

I am missing some pieces to this puzzle. What is the period of time between the nice growth after the repot and the wonky growth in the next photo? I have no hard data on time period, but the transplant was done 11/07,  the last "lush" pic was taken on 11/30, the first curling pic (curling started a few days previous) is 12/16. So less than two weeks. Ocean Forest is generally a hot mix that can last around 30 days indoor. What type of or amount of feed did you give this plant along the way,if any? None, simply saved water collected from a rain barrel. Is it perhaps time for a mild mix of CNS17 or fishgut soup?

Raising the light as mentioned above is a good starting point and not a crazy knee jerk reaction that gets a lot of people in trouble. What's interesting to me is that after the repot the plant was in mint condition and showed no ill effects from the lights. True dat. I was amazed at the thick rapid growth and the sudden proliferation of flower buds, It did not behave this way through the season, even in prime.
 
The seedling does seem to be "recovering" though it was never to the extreme of the mother plant. I was concerned at the rapid purplingof stems and leaf veins that accompanied curling. The seedling has a tinge of purple, but no large scale darkening...
 
Thanks for the help.
 
Almost didn't see your replies in red.
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A big "NO" (for right now) on the CNS17 and fish juice.  Especially for a rocoto.  Take my experience as you will - I grow rocotos well out of their optimal environment, and I've only been doing so successfully for a couple of seasons - but it's been my particular observation that rocotos will do far better, with far less nutrient, than most other varieties.  If you've got Ocean Forest, and it's a virgin grow, you shouldn't need to feed.  (mind you, I said *shouldn't*, and barring any other new info, I reserver the right to be wrong)
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Just out of curiosity...  What is the temperature in your growroom?  Lowest temp?  Have these plants been outdoors at all during lower temps?
 

stettoman

Extreme Member
solid7 said:
Almost didn't see your replies in red.
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A big "NO" (for right now) on the CNS17 and fish juice.  Especially for a rocoto.  Take my experience as you will - I grow rocotos well out of their optimal environment, and I've only been doing so successfully for a couple of seasons - but it's been my particular observation that rocotos will do far better, with far less nutrient, than most other varieties.  If you've got Ocean Forest, and it's a virgin grow, you shouldn't need to feed.  (mind you, I said *shouldn't*, and barring any other new info, I reserver the right to be wrong)
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Just out of curiosity...  What is the temperature in your growroom?  Lowest temp?  Have these plants been outdoors at all during lower temps?
 
On the ferts, no worries, I was just asking. They've gotten nothing but saved rain water this entire time. I saved 10 gallons in 1-gallon purified water jugs. The inside of these bottles are turning green slowly, I attribute that to the nature of rain water and whatever "biologicals" it may collect on it's journey to those water jugs and the light they get under the grow table...
 
The room has finally settled at a nice, constant 64F, the lowest this room has ever gotten, if memory serves. Furnace vents are closed and a fan circulates the air through the room. Yes, being in MN, my pepper plants ALL get to experience temps down to 35F, the Rocotos weathered it well, both in the garden and in containers. The garden Rocotos actually survived a couple light frosts, I was impressed...
 
stettoman said:
 
On the ferts, no worries, I was just asking. They've gotten nothing but saved rain water this entire time. I saved 10 gallons in 1-gallon purified water jugs. The inside of these bottles are turning green slowly, I attribute that to the nature of rain water and whatever "biologicals" it may collect on it's journey to those water jugs and the light they get under the grow table...
 
The room has finally settled at a nice, constant 64F, the lowest this room has ever gotten, if memory serves. Furnace vents are closed and a fan circulates the air through the room. Yes, being in MN, my pepper plants ALL get to experience temps down to 35F, the Rocotos weathered it well, both in the garden and in containers. The garden Rocotos actually survived a couple light frosts, I was impressed...
 
I was asking about temp, because low temps can cause things to turn purple.  It's not an actual nutrient deficiency in that case, just the appearance of one, cause by lack of availability.  If you ever see outdoor plants after a light frost, many of them are dark colored.
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Just trying to rule out temp, because purple-ing can also be caused by bright light.  But you've already addressed that.
 
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