How often are you watering it? You should be feeding it with every watering, imo.Takanotsume said:
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seeds Crash course on growing seedlings in coir
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SuburbanFowl said:
For all the people asking "how much buffering", "is buffering necessary", or questioning if regular fertilization counts... You "pre-charge" with Ca, because you're taking advantage of the high cation exchange rate of the material. Can you flush with pure water, over time? Sure. Can you fertilize over time? Yes. But you have just changed the behavior of the media. Do you want to spend the time residually buffering the material, and using it in some stage of mediocrity - or do you want to just grow, and capitalize on the best attributes of the media? Calcium DISPLACES sodium and also frees up Potassium in the media. (yes, coco coir gives away Potassium, when properly charged) So, by pre-charging, you eliminate your "salt" worries, from the get-go. If you are using fertilizer during your grow to pre-buffer your media, then you're robbing the plant, by some unknown percentage. And yes, you can have worst case scenario where an improperly treated media leads to wholesale failure. Seen it, done it. It's made me very conscientious of how I grow in this particular media.
SuburbanFowl said:
I wouldn't agree with that. I'd have it on a 2 week cycle, and for babies, maybe around 1 tsp per gallon, and ~1 Tbsp per gallon, for a mature plant. (from the time it's able to bear) Between those size ranges, it's pretty hard to F it up.
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I feed my plants ~1 Tbsp per gallon, every other week, in the exact mix that Takanotsume listed. Blended coco is the same as a peat based potting mix. Growing indoors, DTW is a whole different ballgame, as is the inclusion of ANYthing in the coco, other than perlite.
My mistake, I missed the worm castings part.solid7 said:
solid7 said:
Thank you very much for the detailed response. Yes, the more I'm using coco the more intrigued I am. Being conscientious about it seems to be key.
I feel like you have a much greater understanding of this media than your post suggests and perhaps you're downplay the extent of your knowledge.
Forgive me for my very basic understanding of chemistry;
My current understanding is that colloids attract different ions based on ion dimensions, steric configuration and seemingly the most important, electrical charge.
Lets ignore the ion dimensions and steric configuration (Those seems too detailed and getting into that is perhaps breaching the point of diminishing returns).
Focusing on electrical charge, hypothetically, does it matter what kind of ++ ions we are buffering with? (I'm talking purely in the sense of exchanging the sodium and potassium ions)
Based on phrases you used above, I am confused ("displaced" with regards to sodium vs "freed up" with regards to potassium). Are you saying that, to the best of your knowledge, even fully "pre-charging" coco will not result in all of the K+ being exchanged?
Why would Na+ be "displaced" and yet K+ be "freed up"? Are you using the terms "displaced" and "freed up" to simplify the explanation, or are these terms being used mutually exclusively?
Is the use of "displaced and "freed up" because the ratio of K:Na in the colloids (in "un-buffered" coco) is different, generally speaking? (Higher ratio of K:Na in "un-buffered" coco, on average)
Are you saying that Na+ specifically will be exchanged for Ca++?
Wouldn't the same be true for K+ being exchanged with Ca++? (You specifically mentioned Calcium being used as the buffer in your previous post)
Is the Na+ "displaced" because of it's lower general percentage within the "un-buffered" coco yet the K+ "freed up" because coco has a higher general percentage of K+ in it's "un-buffered" state.
A quote from an article states;
"Potassium can be attached to up to 40% of the sites and Sodium can be attached by up to 15% of the sites."
Assuming this is true, what is the difference between K+ and Na+ here? If we flush it properly with Calcium Nitrate (which would contain NH4+ and NO3+ but lets ignore that) and equilibrium has been reached then shouldn't all of the possible sites (that can be exchanged) containing Na+ and K+ have been exchanged for Ca++?
Once equilibrium has been reached, there will still be Na+ and K+ present, presumably (Am I correct)?
Have I got this right and our goal with "pre-buffering" is to get the media to have a completely (as much as possible) fulfilled CEC?
Btw if any of my questions don't make sense due to my lack of understanding chemistry or if I haven't asked them in an understandable form please ask me to rephrase. I'm honestly trying to learn as much as possible about this media and any information provided is greatly appreciated.
Okay, so once equilibrium has been achieved or once the CEC has been fulfilled, the media should now act like any other. If we buffer our coco correctly it shouldn't contain excessive amounts of P or Na and should be as "balanced" as possible,
Okay, so why is the use (or at least, recommendation of use) of a Cal+Mag supplement at every feeding so prevalent?
If the the media has been properly buffered then the plant will not actually need additional Ca++ or Ma++.
Every plant (including cannabis) can only uptake a finite amount of nutrients at any given time. Why would anyone want to reduce the sum of TDS available to their plant by adding more TDS in the form of a Cal+Mag supplement? Any decent all in one fertiliser will contain more than enough Ca and Mg.
More Cal+Mag = Less Base Nutrient. Yes, the plant is now getting "more" Ca and Mg but it is being robbed of arguably far more important nutrients (assuming we're using a well balanced fertilizer).
In reality, products such as Cal+Mag whatever other products people are adding to their feeding regimen are actually completely unnecessary and in a sense are actually hurting their plants. We can't throw more nutrients at a plant and expect it to get bigger, the plant can only eat what the plant can eat.
A Cal+Mag supplement could be applied if signs of Ca or Mg deficiency are noted, rather than giving it when the plant probably doesn't need it.
Some additives might make sense (humic,fulvic acids, perhaps rooting stimulants and maybe things like seaweed extract being foliar sprayed) but then a lot of them don't.
When you mentioned before
Could you explain more about the Potassium part of this statement?
How does that work? Even once fully buffered will the media will still hold potassium? (a generous amount, even?).
If the "pre-buffered" coco is giving away potassium even after CEC has been fulfilled why does an extra P/K product even exist (Keep in mind, multiple nutrient companies offer forms of this product).
The products I'm talking about are specifically marketed towards cannabis growers.
Unfortunately in my country the only hydroponic products I have access to come from hydroponic shops which cater to a specific type of grower.
After researching this I'm having an even harder time understanding how the use of these products is so prevalent in the first place.
Cannabis isn't some special magical plant that reacts to nutrients differently than any other plant.
I'm more baffled now than I was when I started with coco coir.
Okay, so once equilibrium has been achieved or once the CEC has been fulfilled, the media should now act like any other. If we buffer our coco correctly it shouldn't contain excessive amounts of P or Na and should be as "balanced" as possible,
Okay, so why is the use (or at least, recommendation of use) of a Cal+Mag supplement at every feeding so prevalent?
If the the media has been properly buffered then the plant will not actually need additional Ca++ or Ma++.
Every plant (including cannabis) can only uptake a finite amount of nutrients at any given time. Why would anyone want to reduce the sum of TDS available to their plant by adding more TDS in the form of a Cal+Mag supplement? Any decent all in one fertiliser will contain more than enough Ca and Mg.
More Cal+Mag = Less Base Nutrient. Yes, the plant is now getting "more" Ca and Mg but it is being robbed of arguably far more important nutrients (assuming we're using a well balanced fertilizer).
In reality, products such as Cal+Mag whatever other products people are adding to their feeding regimen are actually completely unnecessary and in a sense are actually hurting their plants. We can't throw more nutrients at a plant and expect it to get bigger, the plant can only eat what the plant can eat.
A Cal+Mag supplement could be applied if signs of Ca or Mg deficiency are noted, rather than giving it when the plant probably doesn't need it.
Some additives might make sense (humic,fulvic acids, perhaps rooting stimulants and maybe things like seaweed extract being foliar sprayed) but then a lot of them don't.
When you mentioned before
solid7 said:
Could you explain more about the Potassium part of this statement?
How does that work? Even once fully buffered will the media will still hold potassium? (a generous amount, even?).
If the "pre-buffered" coco is giving away potassium even after CEC has been fulfilled why does an extra P/K product even exist (Keep in mind, multiple nutrient companies offer forms of this product).
The products I'm talking about are specifically marketed towards cannabis growers.
Unfortunately in my country the only hydroponic products I have access to come from hydroponic shops which cater to a specific type of grower.
After researching this I'm having an even harder time understanding how the use of these products is so prevalent in the first place.
Cannabis isn't some special magical plant that reacts to nutrients differently than any other plant.
I'm more baffled now than I was when I started with coco coir.
I have a background in mathematics, not chemistry - so I'm not sure if my explanations will do much to satisfy your query. Let's go...
I don't know off the top of my head every double positive charged ion. But I suppose if you wanted to exchange some iosotope for Ca, you probably could. After all, the Bikini Atoll coconuts thought Cesium was Potassium, right?
That is correct. In fact, if the CEC is not fully satisfied, it will even start to grab onto Na+ and K+. On the other hand, when it is met, it will give off Na+ and K+. Which is exactly why you want to make sure that you have that out of the way before plant out. K+ is less worrisome than Na+, obviously. but it's still a function of your TDS/EC, and should therefore, be considered important. As much as this seems like a masturbatory exercise, anyone growing in coco should be giving the pre-charging, buffering, whatever you want to call it, a significant amount of attention, if best results are desired. And, for all the talk about it, it's really not a difficult thing to achieve. We've just made it sound far too academic.
Specifically? No, probably not. This is a re-phrasing of your previous question. ++ pushes out +. I can't answer the specifics about how the CEC equilibrium is reached. But there is clearly such a thing. Else, buffering would never be achieved.
Again, yes, there will still be SOME K and Na present. But the problem that you had before, when you weren't buffered - and even worse, when unwashed - is that you were progressively buffering and/or leeching, thereby having all of your Ca absorbed into the media, and letting out too much Na and K to be useful (or even harmful). That could be possibly creating antagonistic relationships, or a completely unbalanced nutrient load.
When the CEC is achieved, your nutrient is feeding the plant, not the media.
Sure it does. Because the type of ions that we put in, are a function of what we are starting with, and what we want to end up with. We know the physical makeup of the coco, so it has this very specific set or requirements. I suppose it's a bit of a natural coincidence that it has the requirements that it does.SuburbanFowl said:
I don't know off the top of my head every double positive charged ion. But I suppose if you wanted to exchange some iosotope for Ca, you probably could. After all, the Bikini Atoll coconuts thought Cesium was Potassium, right?
SuburbanFowl said:
That is correct. In fact, if the CEC is not fully satisfied, it will even start to grab onto Na+ and K+. On the other hand, when it is met, it will give off Na+ and K+. Which is exactly why you want to make sure that you have that out of the way before plant out. K+ is less worrisome than Na+, obviously. but it's still a function of your TDS/EC, and should therefore, be considered important. As much as this seems like a masturbatory exercise, anyone growing in coco should be giving the pre-charging, buffering, whatever you want to call it, a significant amount of attention, if best results are desired. And, for all the talk about it, it's really not a difficult thing to achieve. We've just made it sound far too academic.
The choice of words - "freed up" and "displaced", effectively mean the same thing. You're using the double positively charged ions to push out the single positive charges. We are simply attempting to reach the CEC (cation exchange capacity) and be done with media buffering. That way, all nutrients that we add to the plant later on, are 100% (theoretically) available to the plant, and not being absorbed by the media.SuburbanFowl said:
SuburbanFowl said:
Specifically? No, probably not. This is a re-phrasing of your previous question. ++ pushes out +. I can't answer the specifics about how the CEC equilibrium is reached. But there is clearly such a thing. Else, buffering would never be achieved.
You can ignore the component molecules of NH4 and NO3, for the same reason that you can ignore the single positive charged molecules in the coco coir. The double charged ions are the ones that are doing the work. (attaching more readily, and displacing other single charged molecules, up to some point)SuburbanFowl said:
Again, yes, there will still be SOME K and Na present. But the problem that you had before, when you weren't buffered - and even worse, when unwashed - is that you were progressively buffering and/or leeching, thereby having all of your Ca absorbed into the media, and letting out too much Na and K to be useful (or even harmful). That could be possibly creating antagonistic relationships, or a completely unbalanced nutrient load.
When the CEC is achieved, your nutrient is feeding the plant, not the media.
SuburbanFowl said:
All I'm going to say is, I've heard it said, "Judge a man not by his answers, but by the questions that he asks".
In this case, your questions are your answers. Do a couple of grows without all of that grow shop hype and bullshit, and report your findings. Your present understanding is sufficient to take you a very long ways.
Thanks very much for your response Solid7. In hindsight I actually already knew what to do before you responded 
but that has solidified my views.
I personally will pre-buffer any coco coir I use from now on, regardless of whether the packaging claims it has been buffered or not. There is no point taking that risk when pre-buffering is such a simple process in the first place.
but that has solidified my views.I personally will pre-buffer any coco coir I use from now on, regardless of whether the packaging claims it has been buffered or not. There is no point taking that risk when pre-buffering is such a simple process in the first place.
SuburbanFowl said:Thanks very much for your response Solid7. In hindsight I actually already knew what to do before you responded
I personally will pre-buffer any coco coir I use from now on, regardless of whether the packaging claims it has been buffered or not. There is no point taking that risk when pre-buffering is such a simple process in the first place.
You're welcome. I wouldn't hesitate to use a trusted brand of coco right out of the bag. But for anything else, I use the cheapest (readily available) calcium source that I can find. And by readily available, I mean to the plant. Calcium acetate is my go-to. But I have just started using a mix of humic acid and powdered eggshells as a long-term buffer/calcium source, for my less maintenance grows, in coco-based mixes.